Why is hand cav considered good now?

France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Usually if you have no hand cav of your own, and your opponent has a mass of hand cav, you're going to lose the fight tbh. You need some cav to block yourself. Best example is people going skirm/goon against germany.
Ignoring the counter unit system is usually not good
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

We've already had this argument and I think skirm/goon vs Germany is something you can do.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Garja »

Ye maybe with 5 hunts and 4 mines in range of TC.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Ye maybe with 5 hunts and 4 mines in range of TC.

Maybe with walls? :O
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well we can play that some time soon. I go germany and you go for pure skirm goon with a civ of your choice, on a standard map and with a rather fair match up. And we see how it goes.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'd still cav switch at some point if you make 0 anti cav but if you go for brs+full uhlan/skirm I'd rather go full skirm/goon lol.

And I've already beat your and Mitoe's ger with France/Dutch/Ports (even on the RE) going full skirm/goon.
I've lost too but I'd say it was about 50% overall.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Garja »

Of course if you only play on like Hudson Bay with 3 safe hunts and mines maybe results get a bit distorted? Besides, evne in that case you are not going to 50% with skirm goon vs Germans.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Of course if you only play on like Hudson Bay with 3 safe hunts and mines maybe results get a bit distorted? Besides, evne in that case you are not going to 50% with skirm goon vs Germans.

Saguenay, hudson bay, kamchatka and adirondacks as far as I remember.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Garja »

Pretty campy maps ye. But again, it's not even about the map. That's just an extra argument. It's more about playing it enough until the opponent adapts and doesn't try to kill you in base if you actually find a way to get an unbreakable position. E.g. shipping 1k wood and taking map etc. Basically there are going to be exploitable drawbacks if you go for the wrong combo, in a way or another.
Image Image Image
No Flag Forjustice
Advanced Player
EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 185
Joined: Feb 26, 2017
ESO: Forjustice

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Forjustice »

I consider in general,when there’re enormous hand cavs in the battlefield, u can’t take down most of them immediately,hand cavs get changed to damage.if u look at the cav property,they have incredible attack and 1.5rof . But massing hand cavs require a extremely eco. So players always start with skirm goon first then make a transition to massing hand cavs later.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Pretty campy maps ye. But again, it's not even about the map. That's just an extra argument. It's more about playing it enough until the opponent adapts and doesn't try to kill you in base if you actually find a way to get an unbreakable position. E.g. shipping 1k wood and taking map etc. Basically there are going to be exploitable drawbacks if you go for the wrong combo, in a way or another.

Well I'm not saying you should play 100% skirm/goon all game long. I think that in general you should start with a full skirm/goon composition because in small numbers and with good positioning it's better. Then, after you have enough goons to kill cav (about 20-25), you should add cav IF your opponent doesn't have enough anti cav.
So actually if your opponent goes 1000w etc you'll still have a good composition in late game.

Besides, as I said previously, if you make hand cav you have to be ahead, else you get poked and since your hand cav can't poke you lose units for free. Thus, if you go for a skirm/cav composition you have to be agressive and can't play eco.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Garja »

Ye, I can agree with that. My underlying point tho is that unless you find some other way prior to age3 that MU is heavily Ger favored.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Ye, I can agree with that. My underlying point tho is that unless you find some other way prior to age3 that MU is heavily Ger favored.

Well that's the discussion I had with kaiserklein in another thread. And yes, these MUs were Ger favored on the RE, but skirm/goon is the best way to outplay because you can abuse your positioning, so all in all skirm/goon isn't bad if you know exactly what you're doing.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Jaeger »

momuuu wrote:Vet hussars as dutch are awkward. Your stable is quite taxed because ruyters train relatively slowly.

In skirm goon vs skirm goon cav usually isnt great, although cav switches can still be efficient. But there are only a few true skirm goon civs: france, dutch, iro and thats it. Brits have longbows, which give the other civ incentive to make hussars, plus longbows dont synergize as well with goons so often its nice to also mix in hussars as brit. Germany's army is actually best countered by cav goon, and its crucial to actually make hand cav against them and germany doesnt go skirm goon either obviously. Ports has cassadores which are extra weak against hussars, so its good to mix in hand cav against them. Many other civs have different sorts of army compositions that might be countered well by hussars.

Its actually interesting, we talk a lot about skirm goon vs skirm goon hand cav and xbow pike vs musk huss has been debated a lot, yet there are few civs that actually play like that. There are only two true skirm goon civs, although ports iro and india do have a variant on it. But thats still only 1/3rd of the civs.

Yeah I know it's weird; but I guess it feels like the majority because none of those other civs can be put into a group, they're in their own individual category. Also I guess these civs are the most popular
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Jaeger »

Mitoe wrote:Cav switches are good in situations where your opponent can’t kite, like when they’re fighting near walls or near resources that they need to defend. That’s the real reason cav switches are better later in the game; you can only kite so far before you hit a wall or a group of vills you need to defend because if you don’t then you can’t gather any resources and train any more units.


Very interesting point; but aren't you supposed to tank with vills in later game anyways? I thought we always criticize it when people don't micro to shoot at the units instead kill the vills.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Not this again, skirm goon is utter shite vs german, no wonder you want to nerf german
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

ovi12 wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Cav switches are good in situations where your opponent can’t kite, like when they’re fighting near walls or near resources that they need to defend. That’s the real reason cav switches are better later in the game; you can only kite so far before you hit a wall or a group of vills you need to defend because if you don’t then you can’t gather any resources and train any more units.


Very interesting point; but aren't you supposed to tank with vills in later game anyways? I thought we always criticize it when people don't micro to shoot at the units instead kill the vills.

It depends on the situation. The only time you want to fight with vills is if you will lose the ability to gather resources if you do not, because then the vills are basically worthless anyway. You fight with the vills in an attempt to continue gathering yourself, and then if you come out with the military advantage, you’ll be sacrificing your economy, but then you may push your opponent’s resources and force him to stop gathering.

But like you said, you often want to avoid killing vills as the aggressor in this specific situation, and the skirm/goon guy can only kite so far away from those resources with his army and vills. At some point it’s fine to just walk away and zone him off of his hunt or mine or whatever it is. Basically, if he kites you too much then you’ve basically forced him off of those resources.



One last thing: part of the reason cav switches work is because the person with hand cav will lose cav instead of skirms, while the skirm/goon person will lose skirms. So you come out of the fight with a skirm advantage, which you can then use to force better trades.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Cav switches are good in situations where your opponent can’t kite, like when they’re fighting near walls or near resources that they need to defend. That’s the real reason cav switches are better later in the game; you can only kite so far before you hit a wall or a group of vills you need to defend because if you don’t then you can’t gather any resources and train any more units.



One last thing: part of the reason cav switches work is because the person with hand cav will lose cav instead of skirms, while the skirm/goon person will lose skirms. So you come out of the fight with a skirm advantage, which you can then use to force better trades.

No, because if you do this, your opponent will make cav and you won't have anti cav lol.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Mitoe »

Oftentimes that's not really a problem, because you stop training hand cav during the timing and return to training goons.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:Oftentimes that's not really a problem, because you stop training hand cav during the timing and return to training goons.

So what? You will still lose skirms to the cav switch (probably more than your opponent because you'll have less goons), and he will have the skirm advantage again.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by deleted_user »

A C O U N T E R S Y S T E M E X I S T S H O L Y S H I T W H O K N E W > >? ? ? !!
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Jaeger »

Maybe there should be some (streamed) games with these two opinions :D
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by Goodspeed »

Cav skirm counters goon skirm for the same reason cav xbow counters xbow pike: the inf player's RI isn't countering anything. Even if you micro it heavily to focus fire the other player's RI, it's still not a direct counter. You're better off going full goon at that point.
The only reason goon skirm still does somewhat okay is that goons are just strong units.

3 unit compositions are always superior to any 2 unit alternative. This has been known a long time and it's not actually true that people are making more hand cav these days as far as I can see.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by deleted_user »

#ModTheEar
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Why is hand cav considered good now?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:Cav skirm counters goon skirm for the same reason cav xbow counters xbow pike: the inf player's RI isn't countering anything. Even if you micro it heavily to focus fire the other player's RI, it's still not a direct counter. You're better off going full goon at that point.
The only reason goon skirm still does somewhat okay is that goons are just strong units.

3 unit compositions are always superior to any 2 unit alternative. This has been known a long time and it's not actually true that people are making more hand cav these days as far as I can see.

You can't compare xbow/pike and skirm/goon because goons are ranged units thus you can abuse your range advantage while you can't with pikes.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV