Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

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India _DB_
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _DB_ »

Alright. So they are not significant cards. Thanks for all replies.

Next questions:

1)Do you need 3 hussar in age 2 and 4 hussar in age 3?
2)Do you need 8 and 9 halberdiers shipment?
3)Do you need all 3 skirm upgrades (2 in age 2, 1 in age 3)?
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

subzero wrote:Alright. So they are not significant cards. Thanks for all replies.

Next questions:

1)Do you need 3 hussar in age 2 and 4 hussar in age 3?
2)Do you need 8 and 9 halberdiers shipment?
3)Do you need all 3 skirm upgrades (2 in age 2, 1 in age 3)?
1) You don''t want to send 3 huss in age 2 but sometimes you have to (bow rush etc). Never send 4 huss in age 3, that''s terrible, if you want anti inf, send the church card for stradiots or 1k wood to falc.

2) I don''t know but vs german it can be good

3) You can put 25 cards in your deck, you should have those 3 (I''m not sure about nilla).
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by lemmings121 »

I've managed to lose to a swiss pikeman pop (with mm + rax) in the tc..

I dont think they are particulary good, but against people like me who create this situations against themselves, they are awesome :P
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by yurashic »

1000 coin is nice for ruyter/falc (1000 w 1000 c 9 ruyt in fortress).

There are no 8 and 9 halb, there are 7 and 8. 7 is bad, 8 is good vs China, Germany, Spain. Especially if you pop them out of the TC right on the enemy army.

All skirm cards - must have, dutch dont have good hand cavalry and strong skirmishers are the only compensation.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by momuuu »

subzero wrote:Alright. So they are not significant cards. Thanks for all replies.

Next questions:

1)Do you need 3 hussar in age 2 and 4 hussar in age 3?
2)Do you need 8 and 9 halberdiers shipment?
3)Do you need all 3 skirm upgrades (2 in age 2, 1 in age 3)?
1) depending on the match up, 3 hussars can win you a small percentage of games, for example when russia rushes you with a bunch of strelets, or someone does xbow pike or something. It''s not the greatest shipment, its 360 food and 240 coin, but sometimes you''re going to profit from it. It''s one of those cards that makes me hesitate if it''s worth it. It might win you one game in a 100, which actually makes it a good candidate to put it in your deck over cards like 700 food or 700 coin, depending on the match up.

4 hussars definitely isn''t necessary. Again, its a little bit low in value (480 food and 320 coin) making it worse than 1000 coin or even 1000 food. But sometimes it''s a really nice shipment against colonial pushes (something like an xbow pike timing where you killed a lot of the pikes). Depending on the match up, it could be considered I think, for example over a card like refrigeration or royal mint.

2) 8 and 9 halbs are meh, I''d rather have 7/9 ruyters. Halbs are only really ''viable'' against a Spain rod/lancer composition, but in that match up I think you need the ruyter shipments to hold off the early fortress timing. And even if you want to consider halb shipments, I''d prefer the swiss pikemen (coming back to your first question).

3) I don''t think there are many contenders in age 2 that are going to be better than the skirm upgrades. And the age 3 card is really good, so you do need all three.

Dutch has some other hard choices in terms of cards. For example, I''m not sure if Bank of Amsterdam/Bank of Rotterdam are worth it. There are so few games that get to a point where you want to ship these cards, and when you get to that point as Dutch, you are normally fucked anyways. I''ve recently changed these cards for colonial militia and tulip speculation. In age 3, you can also consider the fort card. Normally I don''t like the Fort, but it suits Dutch. In late fortress, you''re going to have to win by getting map control and having more natural resources. The Fort can really help with that imo. I''d put it in over Royal mint and Refrigeration for sure.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by yurashic »

Tulip speculation is a bad shipment. Even if you have 8 banks it is like 4-5 vills. 2 heavy cannons or 17 ruyters are much better.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by momuuu »

yurashic wrote:Tulip speculation is a bad shipment. Even if you have 8 banks it is like 4-5 vills. 2 heavy cannons or 17 ruyters are much better.
Oh yeah, it actually is.

All these Dutch bank cards (except for bank wagon) just suck really hard tbh.

Still though, if you have 6 banks it is a lot better than Bank of Amsterdam/Rotterdam.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _DB_ »

Great! So much of information by all of you :)

Now the last set of questions:

1)Do you need 700 food or 700 coin? Either, neither or any one?
2)Do you need 600 coin?
(I think it's a stupid question)
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by yurashic »

700 f must have, 700 c optional.

600 c bad.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by momuuu »

Agreed. 700f just wins you that one game in a while where you are stuck in your TC in colonial and have a bunch of gold saved up. Then 700f can help you age up or continue to make units in colonial. In those games 700 coin is really useless. In other rare games where you are going to send 700f for some FF (mr milo ff maybe) you might want to send 700 coin indeed, but that card is worse in a decent percentage of games where you get rushed really hard.

Adding 700 coin is optional aswell though. Its nice if you find yourself playing colonial to add some more spam. 600c is probably a little bit too weak, 700f would be better then (and you're going to want that one anyways imo).
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

700f is bad but you can have it in your deck. 700g is a good shipment imo
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _DB_ »

Alright. Thanks all of you! Now everything is cleared about Dutch decks in every situation.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by momuuu »

diarouga wrote:700f is bad but you can have it in your deck. 700g is a good shipment imo

700f and 700g are useless in 95% of games I think, if not more. 700 food is useful in the small percentage of games where you get rushed, become stuck in your TC and have a lot of coin but no food. 700g is not useful in that scenario.

700g is (slightly) more useful than 700f if you are playing in colonial. Note that its value isnt even that much greater' Dutch have the increased gold gathering. Also, your colonial composition is kinda food heavy, so a food shipment is slightly easier to macro and saves you the scarcer hunts.

If you are going to choose between the two, you should always go for the 700f imo. It wins you more games than the 700c does I think.

I personally include both in some decks where I expect to stay colonial for a while, and if I don''t, I put in 700f just in case something crazy happens. You have the spare slots for it.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _venox_ »

1k food allows for 10 hussars without having to change your villager distribution. Army shipments generally are worth about 100 resources less than resource shipments because they are already trained and can be popped from a tower or a town center, so the enemy has to be a bit more careful not only around raxes and stables. As the dutch in fort I almost always have more villagers gathering coin than vills gathering food, so royal mint isn't that bad of a card and is 25% and not only 20% compared to the refrigeration. Also the 25% affect the BASE coin gather rate, which for dutch villagers already is about 15% higher than other vills.
1 dutch vill on mines is worth 1.15 normal vills, times 0.25 (the royal mint upgrade) = 0.2875 vills gained per 1 dutch vill on a mine. Meaning you need 18 vills on coin (= 20.8 regular vills) for it to be worth 6 vills compared to the 30 on food. Also age 1 bank cards allows you to trade 700 resources for 4.5 villagers, royal mint, refrigeration and the tulip thingy all are worth about 1 bank at no cost.
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _DB_ »

venox wrote:1k food allows for 10 hussars without having to change your villager distribution. Army shipments generally are worth about 100 resources less than resource shipments because they are already trained and can be popped from a tower or a town center, so the enemy has to be a bit more careful not only around raxes and stables. As the dutch in fort I almost always have more villagers gathering coin than vills gathering food, so royal mint isn''t that bad of a card and is 25% and not only 20% compared to the refrigeration. Also the 25% affect the BASE coin gather rate, which for dutch villagers already is about 15% higher than other vills.
1 dutch vill on mines is worth 1.15 normal vills, times 0.25 (the royal mint upgrade) = 0.2875 vills gained per 1 dutch vill on a mine. Meaning you need 18 vills on coin (= 20.8 regular vills) for it to be worth 6 vills compared to the 30 on food. Also age 1 bank cards allows you to trade 700 resources for 4.5 villagers, royal mint, refrigeration and the tulip thingy all are worth about 1 bank at no cost.
Good info.
So Royal mint must be nice card over refrigeration. I''ve no idea why H2O has it in deck. Maybe randomly?

-------------------------
I tested game 3 games with 4 hussars shipment and 5 games with 1000 food.
I saw 4 hussar behind only useful in one game. I lost two games with not having 1k food.

But with 1k food, I found it useful in every 5 games. It won me everytime. Eventually in 2 games I was sucessfully to age 4.

1k food is just better.

Thanks all of you!
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Dutch - 7 Black riders vs 12 Swiss Pikes and More

Post by _venox_ »

Aztec food shipments should be slaves and gathering the food would be animated like eating them' everybody loves the cannibal civ!!
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