True unit countering mechanics

Good ol Ivan · Post by **Good ol Ivan** » 24 Jul 2015, 01:34

jerom wrote:
ivan wrote:siege troopers are units which dont particularly counter any set of units and/or have a high siege attack.
Oprichniks, grens, petards...

But do minutemen have a bonus against them? Also, are pumas siege units aswell?

Yes
Maybe.

Abus guns arent siege troopers though.

adderbrain5 · Post by **adderbrain5** » 24 Jul 2015, 03:35

ivan wrote:
jerom wrote:But do minutemen have a bonus against them? Also, are pumas siege units aswell?
Yes
Maybe.

Abus guns arent siege troopers though.

all siege troopers just get countered by what they are. skirms counter Gren as HI and maybe even lancer cav
Pumas are definately heavy infantry the exception might be the shinobi which seem to have no counter though they ar not hat strong in combat. I think arrow knights are the same but Im not sure

MM have no bonuses and nothing has any vs them

deleted_user0 · Post by **deleted_user0** » 24 Jul 2015, 05:41

mm have bonus vs siege units. not sure if abus are siege unit. i thought so. the TC doesnt have bonus though, in tad.

k abus arent a siege unit

aligator92 · Post by **aligator92** » 24 Jul 2015, 07:51

adderbrain5 wrote:
ivan wrote:Yes
Maybe.

Abus guns arent siege troopers though.
all siege troopers just get countered by what they are. skirms counter Gren as HI and maybe even lancer cav
Pumas are definately heavy infantry the exception might be the shinobi which seem to have no counter though they ar not hat strong in combat. I think arrow knights are the same but Im not sure

MM have no bonuses and nothing has any vs them

Thats wrong. Just testes it in the scenario editor with the following results: Minutemen do extra damage to siege units
Siege units: Flail Elephant, Grenadier, Petard, Ram, Mantlet, Arrow Knight and strangely also Puma and Shinobi
Also tested the following units and Minutemen did not do extra damage versus them: Mortar, Falc and therefore other cannons i guess, strangely Siege Elephant, Abus Gun, Hand Mortar

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 24 Jul 2015, 08:28

What symbols are we talking about again? Red man symbol whaaat?

aligator92 · Post by **aligator92** » 24 Jul 2015, 09:01

venox wrote:What symbols are we talking about again? Red man symbol whaaat?

The TNT Symbol. Minutemen have it

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:02

I remember when I used to think pikemen do bonus damage against ranged ("light") infantry. I was ten years old and had just switched from 'Nilla...

Also, It's extremely simple: Minutemen do double damage to units with the "Siege Trooper" tag.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:03

jerom wrote:The best way of thinking about it, is that Light infantry = cav.

Also, Ive read conflicting things about the siege trooper thing. How does that actually work?

There''s nothing conflicting about it' just a lot of clueless clowns who think it means Minutemen do double damage to artillery.

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:14

zoom wrote:
jerom wrote:The best way of thinking about it, is that Light infantry = cav.

Also, Ive read conflicting things about the siege trooper thing. How does that actually work?
Theres nothing conflicting about it' just a lot of clueless clowns who think it means Minutemen do double damage to artillery.

How do you know if the things I read were conflicting or not lol.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:28

I don't. I never said I do.

lemmings121 · Post by **lemmings121** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:50

All this talk makes absolutely no sense at all. A simple guide will be much more usefull:

It is a hidden info, but it is in game, next time I got some free time I might do a noobfriendly printcreen.

Holding your mouse on top of a pic of the unit, it will show the unit tags. like "heavy inf, inf, etc". All units have several tags.
Holding your mouse on top of the stats of a unit (att, bonus etc), it will show another box, with all bonus writen. (ie 0,7*Heavy inf, 1,5*inf)

To know the efects of a unit over another, look for this bonus stats, and for the tags of the units.
by doing this you will find some unexpected tags, as granadeirs being heavy inf, abus not having any artilery tag, etc.

Its a litte counter intuitive, but you should ignore all in game descriptions like "abus is a artitely unit that does blablah.." its just a generic description, its not how the counter system works, and its quite often missleading.

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 24 Jul 2015, 18:52

Also cossacks aren't a light cavalry unit.

cedarfarms · Post by **cedarfarms** » 24 Jul 2015, 19:41

the way i grasped the counter system was when i realized that if you select a unit and put the mouse over the picture of the unit and read what it says, it will tell you all the unit type and classifications that the unit is. Siege Units are UNITS, cannons arent units if that makes sense, in the way you cant use a euro explorer industrial age crackshot on a falc. Abus Guns are a siege unit if im not mistaken because MM do own them very hard.
the "light infantry" tag is what confuses everybody because light infantry makes you think about skirms and archers but in reality its something very different ( Coyo, tigerclaw, rattan ) The units i am unsure about are rods and barbary corsairs, they are kind of a mix between heavy and light infantry, does anyone know what hey are.

To the person who mentioned using pikes to kill skirms because you thought they did 2x vs light infantry or whatever, i was right there with you lol, for the longest time i thought light infantry was skirms and archers so i would send my pikes in and think they would own once they engaged in hand to hand combat but it never turned out well lol

EDIT: Abus Guns are not a Siege Unit/Trooper, they are classified as 3 types, Gunpowder unit, ranged infantry, infantry

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 24 Jul 2015, 19:43

Light infantry means they don't take the fatfucks as soldiers.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 19:58

cedarfarms wrote:the way i grasped the counter system was when i realized that if you select a unit and put the mouse over the picture of the unit and read what it says, it will tell you all the unit type and classifications that the unit is. Siege Units are UNITS, cannons arent units if that makes sense, in the way you cant use a euro explorer industrial age crackshot on a falc. Abus Guns are a siege unit if im not mistaken because MM do own them very hard.
the "light infantry" tag is what confuses everybody because light infantry makes you think about skirms and archers but in reality its something very different ( Coyo, tigerclaw, rattan ) The units i am unsure about are rods and barbary corsairs, they are kind of a mix between heavy and light infantry, does anyone know what hey are.

To the person who mentioned using pikes to kill skirms because you thought they did 2x vs light infantry or whatever, i was right there with you lol, for the longest time i thought light infantry was skirms and archers so i would send my pikes in and think they would own once they engaged in hand to hand combat but it never turned out well lol

EDIT: Abus Guns are not a Siege Unit/Trooper, they are classified as 3 types, Gunpowder unit, ranged infantry, infantry

Abus Guns are not "Siege Troopers"' Minutemen do no bonus damage to Abus Guns.

Rodeleros are heavy infantry as well as infantry and hand infantry. Barbary Corsairs are, as far as I can discern, a clone unit of Rodeleros. The only light infantry units in the game are Coyote Runners and Eagle Runner Knights as well as Rattan Shields and Tiger Claws, I believe.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 24 Jul 2015, 20:04

disciples are also light inf I think, but I'm not sure. Someone should test that

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 20:06

lemmings121 wrote:All this talk makes absolutely no sense at all. A simple guide will be much more usefull:

It is a hidden info, but it is in game, next time I got some free time I might do a noobfriendly printcreen.

Holding your mouse on top of a pic of the unit, it will show the unit tags. like "heavy inf, inf, etc". All units have several tags.
Holding your mouse on top of the stats of a unit (att, bonus etc), it will show another box, with all bonus writen. (ie 0,7*Heavy inf, 1,5*inf)

To know the efects of a unit over another, look for this bonus stats, and for the tags of the units.
by doing this you will find some unexpected tags, as granadeirs being heavy inf, abus not having any artilery tag, etc.

Its a litte counter intuitive, but you should ignore all in game descriptions like "abus is a artitely unit that does blablah.." its just a generic description, its not how the counter system works, and its quite often missleading.

Here''s your guide:

"1. Read unit multipliers
2. Place cursor on unit portrait
3. Read unit tags.

P.S. Please be advised that all ranged infantry (with a bonus against heavy infantry) has a hidden multiplier of 0.75 against Coyote Runners and Rattan Shields as well as 2 against Eagle Runner Knights.
P.P.S Please disregard unit descriptions (not tags)."

Let me know if I forgot anything.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:09

garja wrote:disciples are also light inf I think, but I''m not sure. Someone should test that

You are absolutely correct. There''s no need to test this. My bad!

adderbrain5 · Post by **adderbrain5** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:10

does lancer get a bonus vs

Mantlet
Abus
Gren
Ram
Petard
Basicaly all things that are affected by dueling school(as far as I know all of the above except maybe ram)

adderbrain5 · Post by **adderbrain5** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:14

venox wrote:Also cossacks aren''t a light cavalry unit.

Why everyone calls melee/hand cav "heavy cav" is beyond me. First of all cosacks, hussar, hackapell, ulan, etc. are about as light as light cav can get. And I see no reference to "Heavy cav" anywhere in the game. It is called "Hand Cav". The game makes no distinctions between heavy and light cavalry, but there is a big difference in their usage, and both are included in the game, so when talking strategy it makes sense to get this right.
Some units that most people mistake for heavy cav such as Stradiot/wardgelder actually say "light cavalry" in their descriptions so there is really no excuse for this.

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:18

well they don't attack with their hands, do they? Also the only usage of cav is the difference between being tanky and dealing alot of damage: the first will soak up damage and the ladder will raid or try to kill off the enemy goons in melee mode if they are too little. I said coss aren't a light cav unit even though it says so in their description.

What you really have a problem with is the naming and grouping of units and how it should be done differently so it's closer to reality but that's just nitpicking. You can't change how the community calls cavalry units or what group they belong too.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:24

adderbrain5 wrote:does lancer get a bonus vs

Mantlet I think no
Abus yes
Gren yes
Ram no
Petard I think yes
Basicaly all things that are affected by dueling school(as far as I know all of the above except maybe ram)

adderbrain5 wrote:Why everyone calls melee/hand cav "heavy cav" is beyond me. First of all cosacks, hussar, hackapell, ulan, etc. are about as light as light cav can get. And I see no reference to "Heavy cav" anywhere in the game. It is called "Hand Cav". The game makes no distinctions between heavy and light cavalry, but there is a big difference in their usage, and both are included in the game, so when talking strategy it makes sense to get this right.
Some units that most people mistake for heavy cav such as Stradiot/wardgelder actually say "light cavalry" in their descriptions so there is really no excuse for this.

There isnt even a heavy cav tag, just a cav tag and a ranged cav tag.

edit: nvm the must be a heavy cav tag, but it isnt shown in the UI

adderbrain5 · Post by **adderbrain5** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:28

garja wrote:
adderbrain5 wrote:does lancer get a bonus vs

Mantlet I think no
Abus yes
Gren yes
Ram no
Petard I think yes
Basicaly all things that are affected by dueling school(as far as I know all of the above except maybe ram)
adderbrain5 wrote:Why everyone calls melee/hand cav "heavy cav" is beyond me. First of all cosacks, hussar, hackapell, ulan, etc. are about as light as light cav can get. And I see no reference to "Heavy cav" anywhere in the game. It is called "Hand Cav". The game makes no distinctions between heavy and light cavalry, but there is a big difference in their usage, and both are included in the game, so when talking strategy it makes sense to get this right.
Some units that most people mistake for heavy cav such as Stradiot/wardgelder actually say "light cavalry" in their descriptions so there is really no excuse for this.
There isnt even a heavy cav tag, just a cav tag and a ranged cav tag.

edit: nvm the must be a heavy cav tag, but it isnt shown in the UI

why would there be a heavy cav tag?

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:39

Because they ate too much at McDonalds.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 24 Jul 2015, 21:53

because goons do extra damage vs hussar but not vs goons for example

ESOC

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