How to balance the civs

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Russia yurashic
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How to balance the civs

Post by yurashic »

venox wrote:I just pointed out their disadvantages. I never said that they aren''t a strong civilisation.
Golden pavillon is just 6 yumi, arsenal and the 10% dmg increase right? What shipment does it grant you extra to that?
Advanced arsenal.
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How to balance the civs

Post by _venox_ »

It only has 4 upgrades I wouldn't call that advanced arsenal.
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Post by momuuu »

I think just about any civ would be happy if they could age with the pavillion and 6 yumi.
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

jerom wrote:I think just about any civ would be happy if they could age with the pavillion and 6 yumi.
You need 2 vills on the wonder to age as fast as an european civ, you actually loose like 200 ressources.
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How to balance the civs

Post by yurashic »

venox wrote:It only has 4 upgrades I wouldn''t call that advanced arsenal.
You do not really need most of the upgrades in most situations.

The useful ones are LI bonus damage, infantry speed, gunpowder unit damage, gunpowder unit hp, ranged cavalry damage, cannon hp. Japan get all of these, except for ranged cav damage, LI bonus damage and infantry speed, but they dont use skirms or goons and ashi are already really fast.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

diarouga wrote:
jerom wrote:I think just about any civ would be happy if they could age with the pavillion and 6 yumi.
You need 2 vills on the wonder to age as fast as an european civ, you actually loose like 200 ressources.
But you can decide to age faster at anytime, which is great, and train vils while ageing. If you age up in 1:30 like euro civs, it means training 3,6 more villagers in that time, who will very soon pay off for the 2 idle ones.
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How to balance the civs

Post by thebritish »

dsy wrote:First choose the most unbalanced civ. You should modify only one civ at one time to avoid "overpatching". Gather an axpert aoe3 party with the top players to get suggestions how to balance a civ. Test the choosen civ with the most mediocre civ (ofc with expert players + expert obs). Test until both player feels the matchup balanced.

I think the question is who should be in the expert party and who has got computer skill to make it real. And ofc who has got time to do it.
+1
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Post by zoom »

umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:First of all, my post is not bullshit in any way. Second of all, I never said extremely bad' I said exceptionally bad ?? which is entirely true, as they are worse than every other Musketeer unit in the games stats.

Ashigaru: ~1.417 hitpoints per cost' 0.2 damage per cost.
Musketeer: 1.5 hitpoints per cost' 0.23 damage per cost.

Oh god... Their stats are simply not bad, not in the extreme or in the exception. For their cost, jans and tomas do less damage, so you are just wrong.

And here is the kicker, if a ashi had 180 hp hed still die in the same ampunt of shots ro musketeers and tc fire. Probably the same vs other units, if i cod be bothered to check. Ashi had 26 damage before but were nerfed cuz its too good.
I wouldnt say that they are a bad unit, or that their stats are absolutely bad' they are relatively bad though, given how they are are worse than all other Musketeer-type units stats, the have exceptionally bad statistics within the context of the unit type. Furthermore, I never said anything about extremes' I merely pointed out glaring flaws in your not-so-factual facts from your first post on the subject.

There are other sources of damage than Town Centers. Finally, Ashigaru had 34 damage (and 180 or 190 hitpoints) at the time of release, IIRC.
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Post by zoom »

neuron wrote:The thing is ashis are so fast that the other stats don''t matter. They can just basically fire a volley, run, come back, fire another volley. Imagine having 2-3 groups of ashis randomly running and shooting around your eco, and you trying to get them with regular infantry. Then "how bad their stats are" doesn''t matter, if they can lame their speed to shizzle. Not to mention you can spam these bad boys without even hunting, you just sit in your base, mine and get food from shrines/orchards and just spam these speedy musketeers which can''t be caught by their counters.

Add walls to this factory base and that''s Japan for you.
The other statistics most definitely matter, but they aren''t worse enough to make Ashigaru an overall worse unit, in my opinion. I have never said anything of the sorts either ?? Ashigaru is a great unit. Additionally, while the 4.5 speed certainly is great, it also tends to be overestimated.
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Post by zoom »

venox wrote:I think somebody never played Japan or at least never played against somebody who knows what they''re doing as Japan.
They gather food slower than other nations because they gather berries.
They have to send cherry orchards and are reliant on those. If they pop and the enemy is in your base you just lost your 2 orchards.
They have to send heavenly kami and invest quite some time into their boom and are thus weak in the early game.
They are just as reliant on animals as the other nation, if there are little animals and your opponent needs hunts then you have nowhere to build shrines that gather something.
They have only 4 villagers and 600 crate shipments in colonial.
Walls in general are lame, it just happens that they help out a defensive playstyle like japans in the beginning the most.
And if you ever lose your heroes you can''t really rebuild your destroyed shrines, so you have a reliance on those.
I know I''m about the only one on this, but flaming arrows are inferior to culverines and against a well played culverine/falconet/mass composition you have little chances as Japan.
Good post overall. There are always two sides of the coin, after all...

I''m not sure what precisely you mean by Flaming Arrows being inferior to Culverins though' they are not identical in their roles. FA is a Culverin??Falconet hybrid and as such is a lot worse than Culverins against artillery, and slightly worse than Falconets against infantry.
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Post by _venox_ »

I mean that a culverin is better than a flaming arrow at killing artillery at long range' If japans opponent can set up a strong army with some culverins and falconets or heavy cannons or horse artillery (venox artillery for bpds) then flaming arrows aren't best at countering these artillery units.

Culverin > flaming arrow > falconet after all, Japan has no hard counter to culverins except for a bigger flaming arrow mass where some will die but the rest advances fast enough to shot the culverins dead. Or they sneak in their Daimyo which 2 hits artillery, or quickly pop 4 flaming arrows in range which shoot at the culverins.

What I am trying to say though is that in terms of artillery Japan has no real counter to culverins. Most Japanese players set up a infantry and flaming arrows heavy composition, which can be countered by culverins and other artillery pieces, if these artillery pieces are defended well enough against the quick ashigaru.

I don't know if you could suicide some yabusame archers which flank the army to quickly destroy the culverins so the flaming arrows can take out the rest of the artillery in a quick advance.
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Post by zoom »

Are you implying anyone in the world thinks FA is a better artillery-counter than Culverins??
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Post by _venox_ »

I just said not having a counter to culverins is a disadvantage for the civ since I listed that in my other disadvantages of the civilisation.
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Post by zoom »

You are about the only one who thinks that FA are worse than Culverins at killing artillery?

"I know I'm about the only one on this, but flaming arrows are inferior to culverines and against a well played culverine/falconet/mass composition you have little chances as Japan."
"I mean that a culverin is better than a flaming arrow at killing artillery at long range"
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Post by _venox_ »

Against Japan people don't seem to train culverins and other artillery at all. Maybe they know that culverins are better than FA but it just slips their mind when playing against Japan. Also most people wouldn't have listed that as a big disadvantage.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:Oh god... Their stats are simply not bad, not in the extreme or in the exception. For their cost, jans and tomas do less damage, so you are just wrong.

And here is the kicker, if a ashi had 180 hp hed still die in the same ampunt of shots ro musketeers and tc fire. Probably the same vs other units, if i cod be bothered to check. Ashi had 26 damage before but were nerfed cuz its too good.
I wouldnt say that they are a bad unit, or that their stats are absolutely bad' they are relatively bad though, given how they are are worse than all other Musketeer-type units stats, the have exceptionally bad statistics within the context of the unit type. Furthermore, I never said anything about extremes' I merely pointed out glaring flaws in your not-so-factual facts from your first post on the subject.

There are other sources of damage than Town Centers. Finally, Ashigaru had 34 damage (and 180 or 190 hitpoints) at the time of release, IIRC.



There was no initial post of mine, i responded to you. And they arent exceptionally bad... You say they have the worst stats, which just isnt true, tomahawks have worse for sure, and jans have lower attack for the cost. And you cant just diaregard speed as you did, saying their stats suck except speed, its obvious that the hitpoints and attack arent as high according to cost because of the speed.

Finally 170 or 180 hp doesnt make a digfference, not only vs musks and tc fire but also vs skirms, cannon, goons, mm, jans, and xbows probably more
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Post by lordraphael »

umeu wrote:No. First priority should be making grens viable. I suggest giving them a bonus vs heavy infantry but lower base dmg and make them available in the barracks. Would add diversity to alot of mus! We could see gren musk vs musk lb, gren musk huss vs dop uhlan bow. Gren cav vs yumi ashi... Oh god endless possibilities
this is actually a great suggestion i could imagine grens beeing op though if the could be trained from a rax ( British grens would be op for sure )
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Post by Papist »

If they could be trained from the barracks, grens would certainly be viable. If not for the extra 300 w to throw up a foundry,they would be the perfect counter to all infantry compositions. Just imagine going musk/gren against Russia...
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Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah they need a bit of a buff too. I don't think making rax + art foundry instead of rax + rax/stable makes grens not viable, you just spend an extra 100 wood. Sure making them available in the rax would make things easier (the opponent can't spot your art foundry, you save 100w, and you can switch to 2 rax musks/lb) but currently the stats of the grenadiers are too low, especially against cav. I don't think there is an unit weaker vs cav than grenadiers (except culvs i guess lol), because no hit and run + weak attack + weak range + 0.5 multiplier vs cav. If at least it were better vs infantry it might become viable tho, i guess they need a positive multiplier or an attack buff
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Post by Garja »

making art from rax is silly. But ye grens need a buff but not in stats. Probably they shouldn't be tagged a heavy infantry so atleast ranged inf loses to them.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

garja wrote:making art from rax is silly. But ye grens need a buff but not in stats. Probably they shouldn''t be tagged a heavy infantry so atleast ranged inf loses to them.



I disagree. Being heavy inf is fine, they have 50% rr so it still takes most colo units ages to kill one. But imo they should heave a bonus vs heavy inf because theyre soppused to be close formation breakers. So they would be like the ranged version of a jag prowl knight which doesnt do well vs cav (tho i think the malus vs cav should be removed maybe). As such grens become an interesting unit to combo with.
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Post by Garja »

Thing is grens have siege attack type so they bypass any resistance, and their attack is not bad, they definitely kill infantry if infantry stands there taking hits. Musks can't really hit and run grens. I think musks also do fine vs grens but the latter should win, but ranged inf can just kite because of the suxor animation grens have. So either remove that (kinda not necessary imo) or atleast tag them as ranged infantry (they even have ranged resistance) just like abus.
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Post by Kaiserklein »

Or then if they stay heavy infantry they should be more efficient vs cav, making it a polyvalent unit

Why couldn't we buff their stats a bit ?
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Post by Good ol Ivan »

umeu wrote:
garja wrote:making art from rax is silly. But ye grens need a buff but not in stats. Probably they shouldnt be tagged a heavy infantry so atleast ranged inf loses to them.

I disagree. Being heavy inf is fine, they have 50% rr so it still takes most colo units ages to kill one. But imo they should heave a bonus vs heavy inf because theyre soppused to be close formation breakers. So they would be like the ranged version of a jag prowl knight which doesnt do well vs cav (tho i think the malus vs cav should be removed maybe). As such grens become an interesting unit to combo with.
+1
It would be pretty nice to see grens once in a while. I dont want to see them as the new "meta", but itd be pretty interesting if they were more... viable to say the least
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Post by deleted_user0 »

garja wrote:Thing is grens have siege attack type so they bypass any resistance, and their attack is not bad, they definitely kill infantry if infantry stands there taking hits. Musks can''t really hit and run grens. I think musks also do fine vs grens but the latter should win, but ranged inf can just kite because of the suxor animation grens have. So either remove that (kinda not necessary imo) or atleast tag them as ranged infantry (they even have ranged resistance) just like abus.



That would just make them a shitty version of abus and imo a very bland unit. Its perfectly fine if ranged inf can counter grens, they are a niche unit and should remain so, but right now theyre just useless.what you propose would make no sense because you already have bows to do that role and range is better so grens would still be useless. Just their siege doesnt warrant their use. But if theyre a heavy inf that breaks heavy inf and can stand vs cavalry due to relative high melee and hp, then you can play gren musk vs pure musk forcing lbs out of the other, forcing cav out of the gren player. Or you can play gren cav vs bow pike or ashi yumi.

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