Please can we ban Japan from next tournament

[willhaversham]

[face=trebuchet ms" size="2]Hi all, I want this to be a seriously considered topic for the Winter championships for a variety of reasons, listed below:

1) Amongst the pros, Japan has a very good record. I''m not actually aware of the win % for players using Japan but it seems very high. The only time I can recall Japan losing was BS losing to Musket''s France (discounting Jap mirrors) but even then there was slight controversy relating to lag and BS''s attitude. I would be very interested to see the actual win % Japan has yielded in this tournament (particularly at the later stages).

2) Injustice. I have observed a number of games whereby the player going against Japan has had a much better grasp on the early stages of a game. This has manifested itself in a number of ways - going off and getting rid of a considerable number of shrines unchallenged, getting Toshuga shrine down, or dominating a couple of early exchanges. These however seem to count for nothing as Japan gets to a stage around the 12 minute mark when their units are far stronger than any other civ. You might have seen last night when an army of skirmishers and ruyters came up against an army of Naginata and Ashigaru. Both hard counters, but because the ashigaru have such ridiculous speed they were able to get into close combat and what would otherwise be a hard counter is completely negated.

3) Viewer entertainment. I don''t speak for everyone here and just present my own views. Essentially what I like to see is the player who plays the best wins, and whoever adopts the more aggressive style. A lot of the time in Japan games we see the player wall up and it is essentially just a matter of counting down the clock until Japan is ready to go and obliterate their opponent at the 12 minute mark. It''s just something to consider as I may not be the only one that feels this way.

Interested to hear your views[/face]

[britishmusketeer]

1) Japan is quite beatable with Aztec, India, Brits, French and China. There haven't been that many jap non mirrors played because most high level players consider it a risk not to mirror japan.
2)In that game musketjr was playing dutch which is a weak civ to begin with and he messed up his control in that fight causing him to lose a fight he should have won.
3)The civs in 1) can all either hold japans timing push or do critical damage.
Overall I think japan is a strong civ but no stronger than the other tier 2 civs so banning it is unnecessary.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Japan is a mediocre civ at best, definitely not in the iro/otto category. You just gotta know how to play vs them.

[niedhalf]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

[musketjr]

[face=trebuchet ms" size="2]Hi all, I want this to be a seriously considered topic for the Winter championships for a variety of reasons, listed below:

1) Amongst the pros, Japan has a very good record. Im not actually aware of the win % for players using Japan but it seems very high. The only time I can recall Japan losing was BS losing to Muskets France (discounting Jap mirrors) but even then there was slight controversy relating to lag and BSs attitude. I would be very interested to see the actual win % Japan has yielded in this tournament (particularly at the later stages).

2) Injustice. I have observed a number of games whereby the player going against Japan has had a much better grasp on the early stages of a game. This has manifested itself in a number of ways - going off and getting rid of a considerable number of shrines unchallenged, getting Toshuga shrine down, or dominating a couple of early exchanges. These however seem to count for nothing as Japan gets to a stage around the 12 minute mark when their units are far stronger than any other civ. You might have seen last night when an army of skirmishers and ruyters came up against an army of Naginata and Ashigaru. Both hard counters, but because the ashigaru have such ridiculous speed they were able to get into close combat and what would otherwise be a hard counter is completely negated.

3) Viewer entertainment. I dont speak for everyone here and just present my own views. Essentially what I like to see is the player who plays the best wins, and whoever adopts the more aggressive style. A lot of the time in Japan games we see the player wall up and it is essentially just a matter of counting down the clock until Japan is ready to go and obliterate their opponent at the 12 minute mark. Its just something to consider as I may not be the only one that feels this way.

Interested to hear your views[/face]

first, japan shouldnt be banned. theyre a boring, imbalanced civ but relatively speaking theyre just about okish

in my game, if i felt like my opponent was legit in any sense i wouldnt be making halbs to start with, or not watching my entire army after sending it forward. your opponent playing badly when youre used to good play actually lulls you into a false sense of security, that and his random stuttering and freeze every few seconds means youre not really paying attention or caring much. point being it wasnt a real game and as such theres nothing you can say about balance by looking at it

but despite my first sentence, jp is incredibly badly designed, youre right about that. they either lose to early timings in col or fort or automatically win the game vs anything, with broken units, and many stupid features. even in my game vs bs, which was a real game, he could have won by making a proper unit comp (more yumi and less flamings, basically)

[gibson]

Acergame Japan lost to kynisie Russia with both players going imperial so even if Japan does go later it's not a guaranteed win lol

[musketjr]

hes not a good japan player, though

[gladiator001]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

+1

[gibson]

hes not a good japan player, though

true. It kind of shows how much of a joke this tourney is that he''s made the finals, as well as that a p2p tourney isn''t really a viable option for a quality tourney bc lag

[_DB_]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

lol

1)If you know how to play vs Japan and India you''ll win 100% guaranteed.

2)India and Japan are one of the civs that require very high skill to win with. Ask India and Japan players how hard is it to win even in the worst to fair match ups.

3)Lol ban ports? If you ban ports we''re no longer gonna sea Kynesie next tournament which I totally disagree. The current meta needs the empowerment of the ways to play one of the worst-called-civs like the Ports.

[musketjr]

hes not a good japan player, though

true. It kind of shows how much of a joke this tourney is that hes made the finals, as well as that a p2p tourney isnt really a viable option for a quality tourney bc lag

in a way yea. its a joke to have to play in those conditions but the other option is to refuse to play, which isnt an option. also, the people who made the tourn happen have done so just for the sake of the community and there have been ggs and good series, its also not their fault that a player who lags and stutters constantly made his way to the final. ideally youd not allow someone like that to play, but well, you cant really ban them on reputation either.

[britishmusketeer]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

lol

1)If you know how to play vs Japan and India youll win 100% guaranteed.

2)India and Japan are one of the civs that require very high skill to win with. Ask India and Japan players how hard is it to win even in the worst to fair match ups.

3)Lol ban ports? If you ban ports were no longer gonna sea Kynesie next tournament which I totally disagree. The current meta needs the empowerment of the ways to play one of the worst-called-civs like the Ports.

I think he was sarcastic ^^

[Mr_Bramboy]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

lol

1)If you know how to play vs Japan and India youll win 100% guaranteed.

2)India and Japan are one of the civs that require very high skill to win with. Ask India and Japan players how hard is it to win even in the worst to fair match ups.

3)Lol ban ports? If you ban ports were no longer gonna sea Kynesie next tournament which I totally disagree. The current meta needs the empowerment of the ways to play one of the worst-called-civs like the Ports.

I think you failed to detect the sarcasm.

[momuuu]

Didnt acergame beat kynesies japan with french?

But niedhalf is right, japan stays or we play a french mirror tournement.

That, or we make a fan patch.

[_DB_]

lol

1)If you know how to play vs Japan and India youll win 100% guaranteed.

2)India and Japan are one of the civs that require very high skill to win with. Ask India and Japan players how hard is it to win even in the worst to fair match ups.

3)Lol ban ports? If you ban ports were no longer gonna sea Kynesie next tournament which I totally disagree. The current meta needs the empowerment of the ways to play one of the worst-called-civs like the Ports.

I think you failed to detect the sarcasm.

Oh yeah.


If it was sarcasm, +1

[gibson]

Didnt acergame beat kynesies japan with french?

But niedhalf is right, japan stays or we play a french mirror tournement.

That, or we make a fan patch.

ye he did, but I feel like games where kynisie plays a civ you can just throw out what is expected in terms of the mu

[Hazza54321]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

Im happy with india as being arguably the best civ as they require way more skill than japan and lose match ups to more balanced civs such as france and germany, japan is just a cancer, notice any game with jap is mostly a jap mirror at high level

[britishmusketeer]

sure, what the hack! lets ban japan. Then in the next tournament we see that india is too strong, so lets ban india then. if we go on like this we end up having tournaments with spain and ports only, ah no wait, ports can wall and waterboom, lets ban them too, awww what the hell lets ban all civs and play farmville.

Im happy with india as being arguably the best civ as they require way more skill than japan and lose match ups to more balanced civs such as france and germany, japan is just a cancer, notice any game with jap is mostly a jap mirror at high level

ger is a better civ than india imo

[[Armag] diarouga]

Then ban sioux too lol.

[Kaiserklein]

Japan can beat anything with walls. It's even worse on water maps
But the real problem comes from walls being too op. We would need something like walls unlocked only in age 2, walls longer to build, or a limited number of walls pieces... So that you could still make some strategic walls, but not wall up completely and camp forever

[zoom]

[face=trebuchet ms" size="2]Hi all, I want this to be a seriously considered topic for the Winter championships for a variety of reasons, listed below:

1) Amongst the pros, Japan has a very good record. Im not actually aware of the win % for players using Japan but it seems very high. The only time I can recall Japan losing was BS losing to Muskets France (discounting Jap mirrors) but even then there was slight controversy relating to lag and BSs attitude. I would be very interested to see the actual win % Japan has yielded in this tournament (particularly at the later stages).

2) Injustice. I have observed a number of games whereby the player going against Japan has had a much better grasp on the early stages of a game. This has manifested itself in a number of ways - going off and getting rid of a considerable number of shrines unchallenged, getting Toshuga shrine down, or dominating a couple of early exchanges. These however seem to count for nothing as Japan gets to a stage around the 12 minute mark when their units are far stronger than any other civ. You might have seen last night when an army of skirmishers and ruyters came up against an army of Naginata and Ashigaru. Both hard counters, but because the ashigaru have such ridiculous speed they were able to get into close combat and what would otherwise be a hard counter is completely negated.

3) Viewer entertainment. I dont speak for everyone here and just present my own views. Essentially what I like to see is the player who plays the best wins, and whoever adopts the more aggressive style. A lot of the time in Japan games we see the player wall up and it is essentially just a matter of counting down the clock until Japan is ready to go and obliterate their opponent at the 12 minute mark. Its just something to consider as I may not be the only one that feels this way.

Interested to hear your views[/face]

first, japan shouldnt be banned. theyre a boring, imbalanced civ but relatively speaking theyre just about okish

in my game, if i felt like my opponent was legit in any sense i wouldnt be making halbs to start with, or not watching my entire army after sending it forward. your opponent playing badly when youre used to good play actually lulls you into a false sense of security, that and his random stuttering and freeze every few seconds means youre not really paying attention or caring much. point being it wasnt a real game and as such theres nothing you can say about balance by looking at it

but despite my first sentence, jp is incredibly badly designed, youre right about that. they either lose to early timings in col or fort or automatically win the game vs anything, with broken units, and many stupid features. even in my game vs bs, which was a real game, he could have won by making a proper unit comp (more yumi and less flamings, basically)

#PJSALT

[gibson]

Japan can beat anything with walls. It''s even worse on water maps
But the real problem comes from walls being too op. We would need something like walls unlocked only in age 2, walls longer to build, or a limited number of walls pieces... So that you could still make some strategic walls, but not wall up completely and camp forever

how can Japan beat anything with walls? Japan needs to have at least some map control or 5 pikes roving the map will just eliminate all their shrines,forcing them to shrine in base just to maintain enough population for settlers and an army.

[lemmings121]

1) Japan is quite beatable with Aztec, India, Brits, French and China. There haven''t been that many jap non mirrors played because most high level players consider it a risk not to mirror japan.

Yes, you are saying that jap is weak vs those civs, but noone can beat japs with those civs, so they mirror just to be sure...
makes no sense.

so yeah, japan is strong, and pretty much forces a mirror to have a fair game, or a all in cheese of some other civ to have a chance... but thats what we got, if we ban japs too, we probably have to keep banning civs.. so just let it be, and keep watching the ever evolving game of siberia/bengal jap mirror...

[lemmings121]

Japan can beat anything with walls. Its even worse on water maps
But the real problem comes from walls being too op. We would need something like walls unlocked only in age 2, walls longer to build, or a limited number of walls pieces... So that you could still make some strategic walls, but not wall up completely and camp forever

how can Japan beat anything with walls? Japan needs to have at least some map control or 5 pikes roving the map will just eliminate all their shrines,forcing them to shrine in base just to maintain enough population for settlers and an army.

how can Japan beat anything with wall?
erm.. watch kynesie? or pretty much 90% of games with jap that arent mirror?

[Garja]

Can people stop saying none can beat jap and bla and bla. Japan loses quite frequently in my book.