I have read a lot of opinions on what is wrong with water (mostly GoodSpeed's) and I agree with a lot of them' mostly the ones relating to how heavily you have to commit to schooner booming, the snowball-effect of naval military control, and the lack of interactivity between land and sea. In scenario editor, there is a building called a "Dry Dock" and its just a larger looking dock. If you could use it to make 2 types of docks, a War Dock and a Fishing Dock, I think you could solve some of the balance problems. It wouldn't solve all of the problems (such as lack of interactivity between water and land) but it would address the issue caused by the schooner boomer being forced to go multiple docks and the resulting naval supremacy that comes from it.
To address the lack of interactivity, there could be a maximum number of fishing and war boats built per dock (like the native units and their Trade Posts) so that shore space acts as the limiting factor on naval size. Driving an enemy from the shoreline is much easier done from land than from sea, at least until monitors come into play.
On Amazonia, one the most important aspects to it in late game is controlling the shorelines to sustain your production of warships. I think the only way you can get interactivity out of land and sea is to make Naval superiority depend on controlling specific parts of the map.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
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Mr_Bramboy - Retired Contributor
- Posts: 8219
- Joined: Feb 26, 2015
- ESO: [VOC] Bram
- Location: Amsterdam
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Water won't be changed in the first few patches because it's a very big change which requires a lot of effort and testing
Source: edehalland.
Source: edehalland.
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Sgt_ROFLCopter - Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Yeah they said they were still trying to figure out how to balance water. That's the point of starting discussion about it!
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Make docks 300 wood and make boats cheaper.
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I think the core problems of water should be adressed before we start randomly discussing changes.
To me theres multiple problems with water. One being that on serious water maps (like indonesia) not taking the water is borderline impossible. Water is so strong that it isnt even a serious choice anymore to go water or not, or to contest water or not to contest it. It is the only way you can play on those maps. If you picked a civ that is bad on water you can go cry in a corner.
Why is it impossible to not go water? Multiple reasons aswell imo. The foremost is that schooners is just insane. 40w boats is completely ridiculous. The water boom is just too strong. Not doing a water boom means you have to win early. That is where another problem comes in: You cant beat water play on dedicated water maps without winning on water. You cant forget about water and win on land: the water eco is so complete that theres barely any need for land eco or infrastructure or whatever. Besides, ships are way too strong at infantry. There is absolutely no way to engage vills or buildings near the coast with ships nearby. Your army will get shredded. If that isnt bad enough, the counters to ships (culvs, but mostly mortars) lose to monitors. Monitors are also a problem why you cant beat water play on land: once they get the monitors out your base will quickly die.
And theres a lot of issues with taking the fight to the water. Due to the boat building limit and extremely assymetric warship upgrades, some civs are disgustingly dominant on water maps. You cant play the weaker civs on them at all. Theres even more: if the fight were to be somewhat even, it turns out that boats are uninteresting, boring units. Theres this ability that you can use that is super boring, and theres very few possibilities for micro. Its not nearly as skill based as sup battles, where people are microing as fast as they can and normally still suck at it.
If that wasnt enough complaining, theres also something wrong with water on maps with less water. Water only works with schooners, its not really worth it without schooners generally. But if you send a card to water boom, you have to fully commit to the water boom. On many maps, its not worth it to get more than 20-25 fishing boats (if even that many), which means schooners will barely pay off. Especially since you will then also have to invest a lot of resources into defending your fishing boats.
Thats all I can think of for now. I think at the very least schooners needs to be changed. It seems to be one of the main problems with water to me.
To me theres multiple problems with water. One being that on serious water maps (like indonesia) not taking the water is borderline impossible. Water is so strong that it isnt even a serious choice anymore to go water or not, or to contest water or not to contest it. It is the only way you can play on those maps. If you picked a civ that is bad on water you can go cry in a corner.
Why is it impossible to not go water? Multiple reasons aswell imo. The foremost is that schooners is just insane. 40w boats is completely ridiculous. The water boom is just too strong. Not doing a water boom means you have to win early. That is where another problem comes in: You cant beat water play on dedicated water maps without winning on water. You cant forget about water and win on land: the water eco is so complete that theres barely any need for land eco or infrastructure or whatever. Besides, ships are way too strong at infantry. There is absolutely no way to engage vills or buildings near the coast with ships nearby. Your army will get shredded. If that isnt bad enough, the counters to ships (culvs, but mostly mortars) lose to monitors. Monitors are also a problem why you cant beat water play on land: once they get the monitors out your base will quickly die.
And theres a lot of issues with taking the fight to the water. Due to the boat building limit and extremely assymetric warship upgrades, some civs are disgustingly dominant on water maps. You cant play the weaker civs on them at all. Theres even more: if the fight were to be somewhat even, it turns out that boats are uninteresting, boring units. Theres this ability that you can use that is super boring, and theres very few possibilities for micro. Its not nearly as skill based as sup battles, where people are microing as fast as they can and normally still suck at it.
If that wasnt enough complaining, theres also something wrong with water on maps with less water. Water only works with schooners, its not really worth it without schooners generally. But if you send a card to water boom, you have to fully commit to the water boom. On many maps, its not worth it to get more than 20-25 fishing boats (if even that many), which means schooners will barely pay off. Especially since you will then also have to invest a lot of resources into defending your fishing boats.
Thats all I can think of for now. I think at the very least schooners needs to be changed. It seems to be one of the main problems with water to me.
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Sgt_ROFLCopter
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Getting rid of schooners doesn't really fix the issue of snowballing power of sea. I'm all in favor of getting rid of it, I just don't think that's the complete solution. I think separating the military building from the economic building prevents the situation where you're quickly making a few caravels out of multiple docks to gain naval control. The result of that plus the permanence of naval control results in you sitting there with multiple "TCs" and a sea of free food and gold for the taking. You end up committed to the pie just by trying to get a slice.
I think if you could manage to greatly reduce warship acceleration and rotation speed you could have some good naval battles. If you could make it possible for them to shoot/use abilities while moving, that would make incredible games.
I think if you could manage to greatly reduce warship acceleration and rotation speed you could have some good naval battles. If you could make it possible for them to shoot/use abilities while moving, that would make incredible games.
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purplesquid
- Dragoon
- Posts: 486
- Joined: Feb 16, 2015
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
One of the water ideas that I have been toying with is to have set spots that you can build docks (like what they have for trading post). These spots would not be in a player's base forcing some level of land map control in order to go water. This would also make it difficult to spam from more than one dock because it would be hard to defend them both. Also get rid of scooners, make fishing boats like 65ish wood, make docks cheaper but (say 125 wood). That way water would be more of a supplement to land economy than an everything type of deal.
As for warships/monitors being op, I think that monitors should be slightly cheaper but only able to target buildings (not troops or other ships) and the warship special attack should only be able to be used against other warships
As for warships/monitors being op, I think that monitors should be slightly cheaper but only able to target buildings (not troops or other ships) and the warship special attack should only be able to be used against other warships
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Sgt_ROFLCopter
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
The monitor fix, imo, is to delete them from the game. They can fire at anything from an unreachable position. The mortar is VERY well designed to be the longest range unit in the game. The longest range units are almost always OP but ES did a great job of balancing the max range. Monitors totally violate the whole concept though.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Monitors are a cheat. Decrease their long shot range to 50, down from 100.
Jerom is correct about the fact that 40w boats are just too lame. Simply like you are getting almost unraidable vils from 40% of its original cost.
65-70 wood should be fine after schooners.
Jerom is correct about the fact that 40w boats are just too lame. Simply like you are getting almost unraidable vils from 40% of its original cost.
65-70 wood should be fine after schooners.
Doing what you like is Freedom...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Liking what you do is Happiness...
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I don't know why you guys are complaining. Deal with it, water can be denied and water can be OP and game-changing. Simply.
Just deal with it and realise you can't win every game. Anyways this was discussed so many times...
Just deal with it and realise you can't win every game. Anyways this was discussed so many times...
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deleted_user0
- Ninja
- Posts: 13004
- Joined: Apr 28, 2020
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
[quote source="/post/68560/thread" timestamp="1445306770" author="@jerom"]I think the core problems of water should be adressed before we start randomly discussing changes.
To me theres multiple problems with water. One being that on serious water maps (like indonesia) not taking the water is borderline impossible. Water is so strong that it isnt even a serious choice anymore to go water or not, or to contest water or not to contest it. It is the only way you can play on those maps. If you picked a civ that is bad on water you can go cry in a corner.
Why is it impossible to not go water? Multiple reasons aswell imo. The foremost is that schooners is just insane. 40w boats is completely ridiculous. The water boom is just too strong. Not doing a water boom means you have to win early. That is where another problem comes in: You cant beat water play on dedicated water maps without winning on water. You cant forget about water and win on land: the water eco is so complete that theres barely any need for land eco or infrastructure or whatever. Besides, ships are way too strong at infantry. There is absolutely no way to engage vills or buildings near the coast with ships nearby. Your army will get shredded. If that isnt bad enough, the counters to ships (culvs, but mostly mortars) lose to monitors. Monitors are also a problem why you cant beat water play on land: once they get the monitors out your base will quickly die.
And theres a lot of issues with taking the fight to the water. Due to the boat building limit and extremely assymetric warship upgrades, some civs are disgustingly dominant on water maps. You cant play the weaker civs on them at all. Theres even more: if the fight were to be somewhat even, it turns out that boats are uninteresting, boring units. Theres this ability that you can use that is super boring, and theres very few possibilities for micro. Its not nearly as skill based as sup battles, where people are microing as fast as they can and normally still suck at it.
If that wasnt enough complaining, theres also something wrong with water on maps with less water. Water only works with schooners, its not really worth it without schooners generally. But if you send a card to water boom, you have to fully commit to the water boom. On many maps, its not worth it to get more than 20-25 fishing boats (if even that many), which means schooners will barely pay off. Especially since you will then also have to invest a lot of resources into defending your fishing boats.
Thats all I can think of for now. I think at the very least schooners needs to be changed. It seems to be one of the main problems with water to me.[/quote]
people just see 80 vils and dont realise that schooners gather much slower and that it really needs 2 card ups to be really good. even otto with tproute will outgather a fishboom for the first 10-15 min.
problem is, some of this res never runs out, but that is a minor problem in itself imo. the real problem is, and ive said it a million times, the fact that you cant take a fucking fight cost-effectively against warships, they are simply too op with upgrades. 2 upgraded caravels can beat 2 falconets. 3 upgraded frigates can take on pretty much an infinate amount of hand mortars backed by a tower, breezebrothers took out about 25 handmortars (guard handmortars that is) in 3 batches. at one point i had 15 firing away and his frigates never went below half health. aka if you dont have euro mortars or euro culvs or jap morataru, you basically have no chance to beat water with land. and once monitors are out, even culvs and the euro/jap mortars wont cut it anymore. which means you are on a clock, and this clock is so hard to stop since you cant stop anything from going up on the shore basically.
the only way to beat it is by going water harder, and the guy who lost it cant really come back on water, unless the water player fks up hard. fix warships and you will realise that the schoonerboom itself isnt so problematic. it no doubt needs some tweaking, but is not the core problem, by far.
To me theres multiple problems with water. One being that on serious water maps (like indonesia) not taking the water is borderline impossible. Water is so strong that it isnt even a serious choice anymore to go water or not, or to contest water or not to contest it. It is the only way you can play on those maps. If you picked a civ that is bad on water you can go cry in a corner.
Why is it impossible to not go water? Multiple reasons aswell imo. The foremost is that schooners is just insane. 40w boats is completely ridiculous. The water boom is just too strong. Not doing a water boom means you have to win early. That is where another problem comes in: You cant beat water play on dedicated water maps without winning on water. You cant forget about water and win on land: the water eco is so complete that theres barely any need for land eco or infrastructure or whatever. Besides, ships are way too strong at infantry. There is absolutely no way to engage vills or buildings near the coast with ships nearby. Your army will get shredded. If that isnt bad enough, the counters to ships (culvs, but mostly mortars) lose to monitors. Monitors are also a problem why you cant beat water play on land: once they get the monitors out your base will quickly die.
And theres a lot of issues with taking the fight to the water. Due to the boat building limit and extremely assymetric warship upgrades, some civs are disgustingly dominant on water maps. You cant play the weaker civs on them at all. Theres even more: if the fight were to be somewhat even, it turns out that boats are uninteresting, boring units. Theres this ability that you can use that is super boring, and theres very few possibilities for micro. Its not nearly as skill based as sup battles, where people are microing as fast as they can and normally still suck at it.
If that wasnt enough complaining, theres also something wrong with water on maps with less water. Water only works with schooners, its not really worth it without schooners generally. But if you send a card to water boom, you have to fully commit to the water boom. On many maps, its not worth it to get more than 20-25 fishing boats (if even that many), which means schooners will barely pay off. Especially since you will then also have to invest a lot of resources into defending your fishing boats.
Thats all I can think of for now. I think at the very least schooners needs to be changed. It seems to be one of the main problems with water to me.[/quote]
people just see 80 vils and dont realise that schooners gather much slower and that it really needs 2 card ups to be really good. even otto with tproute will outgather a fishboom for the first 10-15 min.
problem is, some of this res never runs out, but that is a minor problem in itself imo. the real problem is, and ive said it a million times, the fact that you cant take a fucking fight cost-effectively against warships, they are simply too op with upgrades. 2 upgraded caravels can beat 2 falconets. 3 upgraded frigates can take on pretty much an infinate amount of hand mortars backed by a tower, breezebrothers took out about 25 handmortars (guard handmortars that is) in 3 batches. at one point i had 15 firing away and his frigates never went below half health. aka if you dont have euro mortars or euro culvs or jap morataru, you basically have no chance to beat water with land. and once monitors are out, even culvs and the euro/jap mortars wont cut it anymore. which means you are on a clock, and this clock is so hard to stop since you cant stop anything from going up on the shore basically.
the only way to beat it is by going water harder, and the guy who lost it cant really come back on water, unless the water player fks up hard. fix warships and you will realise that the schoonerboom itself isnt so problematic. it no doubt needs some tweaking, but is not the core problem, by far.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I think that before criticizing anything about water in this game, we should take a look at how it plays in other aoe games.
For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8JCt4bHM0
For one, I don't think you should ever be able to beat a full water strat with land units, unless you counter it before it gets rolling.
For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8JCt4bHM0
For one, I don't think you should ever be able to beat a full water strat with land units, unless you counter it before it gets rolling.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Yeah, I think water is overrated, it takes time and investment to pay off and some skills to actually get away with it to the point it becomes OP. It's pretty much your fault if you let the opponent get to the point he has tens of fishing ships and 2 gathering cards sent on those ships. If you just wasted time massing bow pikes or musks on land, it's your fault.
There are VODs where some players showed how you can stop a water lame.
Unskilled/inexperienced players who go water can lose fast to standard play. It's not really water which is OP, it's the ability of the player to get away with the waterboom which can make it OP.
There are VODs where some players showed how you can stop a water lame.
Unskilled/inexperienced players who go water can lose fast to standard play. It's not really water which is OP, it's the ability of the player to get away with the waterboom which can make it OP.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
It is not as much that water is OP as it is broken.
Id much rather see a game where waterbooming is a strategical choice rather than an obligation.
That should start with adjusting the fishing boat cost and schooners imo. Then the warships stats really need to be tweaked. Ideally the boat limit would be changed, so that you can actually win sea battles if you have less upgrades but kore economy.
Those changes are already so big that I wonder if water can be fixed at all.
Id much rather see a game where waterbooming is a strategical choice rather than an obligation.
That should start with adjusting the fishing boat cost and schooners imo. Then the warships stats really need to be tweaked. Ideally the boat limit would be changed, so that you can actually win sea battles if you have less upgrades but kore economy.
Those changes are already so big that I wonder if water can be fixed at all.
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Kaiserklein - Pro Player
- Posts: 10282
- Joined: Jun 6, 2015
- Location: Paris
- GameRanger ID: 5529322
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I like this idea to split the docks between eco and military. After all on land, you don't get settlers and military units out of one building, right ? It's kinda dumb that you can do this on water. But I'm afraid they won't let this change happen in the patch, because I think it would change the water meta
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
What about making whales a finite resource? Or only gath er 1 boat per whale vs. 4?
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
would make UP.
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deleted_user0
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
garja wrote:I think that before criticizing anything about water in this game, we should take a look at how it plays in other aoe games.
For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8JCt4bHM0
For one, I don''t think you should ever be able to beat a full water strat with land units, unless you counter it before it gets rolling.
why is it fair that a a full land strat shouldnt be able to beat a full water strat, but that a full water strat can beat a full land strat (even one which is designed to counter water play, with artillery and towers) is perfectly fine? i think thats really retarded.
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deleted_user0
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
dolan wrote:Yeah, I think water is overrated, it takes time and investment to pay off and some skills to actually get away with it to the point it becomes OP. It''s pretty much your fault if you let the opponent get to the point he has tens of fishing ships and 2 gathering cards sent on those ships. If you just wasted time massing bow pikes or musks on land, it''s your fault.
There are VODs where some players showed how you can stop a water lame.
Unskilled/inexperienced players who go water can lose fast to standard play. It''s not really water which is OP, it''s the ability of the player to get away with the waterboom which can make it OP.
this is only partially true, it doesnt change the fact that as it is now, upgraded frigates and monitors simply don''t have a counter, and that is a major flaw in a game which is supposed to be "rock paper scissors".
2 culverins or falconets cost as much as 1 frigate, but a frigate can narrowly beat both. with upgrades they completely demolish them, even if you put all upgrades on your artillery, it doesnt matter anymore. and when monitors come into play you can cry even more.
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
Because its a water map, and water is the main theme?umeu wrote:why is it fair that a a full land strat shouldnt be able to beat a full water strat, but that a full water strat can beat a full land strat (even one which is designed to counter water play, with artillery and towers) is perfectly fine? i think thats really retarded.garja wrote:I think that before criticizing anything about water in this game, we should take a look at how it plays in other aoe games.
For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN8JCt4bHM0
For one, I dont think you should ever be able to beat a full water strat with land units, unless you counter it before it gets rolling.
I dont think a full water strat beats a full land one on Saguenay or maps as such.
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optimusprime - Advanced Player
- Posts: 262
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- ESO: optimus__prime
- Location: Deutschland
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
water balance is fine. without much eco idle u can fastimp 14-15:30 with some units/ships update monitor, get spy gggarja wrote:Because its a water map, and water is the main theme?umeu wrote:why is it fair that a a full land strat shouldnt be able to beat a full water strat, but that a full water strat can beat a full land strat (even one which is designed to counter water play, with artillery and towers) is perfectly fine? i think thats really retarded.
I dont think a full water strat beats a full land one on Saguenay or maps as such.
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deleted_user0
- Ninja
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
garja wrote:Because its a water map, and water is the main theme?umeu wrote:why is it fair that a a full land strat shouldnt be able to beat a full water strat, but that a full water strat can beat a full land strat (even one which is designed to counter water play, with artillery and towers) is perfectly fine? i think thats really retarded.
I dont think a full water strat beats a full land one on Saguenay or maps as such.
lol it definitely does on sag, the sag water is fine (i beat challe with a full water strat on sag and boneng beat you on NE and on Sag also, challe atleast went full land eco, with cree cdb, tps and 4 port tcs booming away, also 2 fast facts cuz he did FI. i never even got close to losing). i am fine with what you say in theory, but then you have to make sure that every civ has the tools to play that game and not just give it to 5 civs and say screw you to the other 9.
on the other hand none of this changes the fact that when you play on texas, and there is a pond in the middle, when the game goes indus the guy who spams a few monitors will most likely win the game. same on great lakes. this has nothing to do with water being the theme, its just brokenness of a few units.
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[Armag] diarouga - Ninja
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- ESO: diarouga
- Location: France
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I'm fine with the meta. What we have to do imo is too give schooners to fre/ger and to give ger a ws upgrade.
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lordraphael
- Pro Player
- Posts: 2549
- Joined: Jun 28, 2015
Water Balance on ESOC Patch
I ll take u up on that.garja wrote:Because its a water map, and water is the main theme?umeu wrote:why is it fair that a a full land strat shouldnt be able to beat a full water strat, but that a full water strat can beat a full land strat (even one which is designed to counter water play, with artillery and towers) is perfectly fine? i think thats really retarded.
I dont think a full water strat beats a full land one on Saguenay or maps as such.
i found a nice replay tho were u loose pretty hard vs water play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSn_jgGaByw
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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lordraphael
- Pro Player
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Water Balance on ESOC Patch
that would be bad those civs are designed without having schooner and it should remain that way. The problem is not wether every civ has schooners or notdiarouga wrote:I''m fine with the meta. What we have to do imo is too give schooners to fre/ger and to give ger a ws upgrade.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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