Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
-
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
Hey folks,
I know X-Bows vs Muskets is a long solved debate that has been discussed ad nauseam and was quite likely one of the first truly solved questions of AoE III. Many of these threads are no longer around, but if I recall correctly it was demonstrated that on the basis of cost-effectiveness (in vill seconds), muskets were either as good or almost as good as x-bows in the x-bows hypothetical best case scenario. Not to mention anything that ISN'T their best case scenario, in which muskets will almost always take the cake. This was during always-ship-villagers meta when the colonial power of civs was largely determined by whether or not they had vill shipments to spare.
Times have changed. Shipments became resource-oriented and builds were refined into powerful timing pushes that were fueled by crates and abusing food gather rates. Civilizations like France and Germany have recognized the power of shipping wood to fuel early colonial pushes. Shipping wood seriously distorts the cost-effectiveness ratio of x-bows vs Muskets due to the fact that food only represents about 36.5% of a x-bows cost. Playing 1300 wood for your first 2 colonial shipments can turn into a lot of infrastructure and a very quick mass. You might even be able to get in their face and seriously disrupt their timing.
So X-bows are viable until after the first 8 minutes of the game, but surely SgtROFLCopter isn't writing a wall of text just about that. You'd be hard pressed to win without cavalry and at some point you'd have to chop wood for stables and houses and switch over to gold and so on and so forth. You pay the price for spending your wood on units that won't be viable until their 3-minute-window next game and end up slowly [strike]chipping[/strike] chopping wood so you can transition into cavalry.
So SgtROFLCopter, I've read 3 paragraphs of your rambling and I still don't know why we should even have this discussion? It sounds like X-Bows are completely locked out of the meta by a number of things.
Yes' yes they are, but I made you read approximately three and a half paragraphs because I need about tree-fiddy.
I know X-Bows vs Muskets is a long solved debate that has been discussed ad nauseam and was quite likely one of the first truly solved questions of AoE III. Many of these threads are no longer around, but if I recall correctly it was demonstrated that on the basis of cost-effectiveness (in vill seconds), muskets were either as good or almost as good as x-bows in the x-bows hypothetical best case scenario. Not to mention anything that ISN'T their best case scenario, in which muskets will almost always take the cake. This was during always-ship-villagers meta when the colonial power of civs was largely determined by whether or not they had vill shipments to spare.
Times have changed. Shipments became resource-oriented and builds were refined into powerful timing pushes that were fueled by crates and abusing food gather rates. Civilizations like France and Germany have recognized the power of shipping wood to fuel early colonial pushes. Shipping wood seriously distorts the cost-effectiveness ratio of x-bows vs Muskets due to the fact that food only represents about 36.5% of a x-bows cost. Playing 1300 wood for your first 2 colonial shipments can turn into a lot of infrastructure and a very quick mass. You might even be able to get in their face and seriously disrupt their timing.
So X-bows are viable until after the first 8 minutes of the game, but surely SgtROFLCopter isn't writing a wall of text just about that. You'd be hard pressed to win without cavalry and at some point you'd have to chop wood for stables and houses and switch over to gold and so on and so forth. You pay the price for spending your wood on units that won't be viable until their 3-minute-window next game and end up slowly [strike]chipping[/strike] chopping wood so you can transition into cavalry.
So SgtROFLCopter, I've read 3 paragraphs of your rambling and I still don't know why we should even have this discussion? It sounds like X-Bows are completely locked out of the meta by a number of things.
Yes' yes they are, but I made you read approximately three and a half paragraphs because I need about tree-fiddy.
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
Is there a question in here? I'm unsure what if anything you're trying to prove/discuss. Are you trying to suggest that xbows have a greater place in the current meta then they currently do? The opposite?
"He's just got more stuff, and sometimes just having more stuff, despite the fact you have better positioning or better micro just doesn't matter because sometimes when you just got more stuff you just win the game." - ZutaZuta
-
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
I've thrown out some summaries of some key arguments regarding xbows vs muskets. I probably failed to mention that they don't share a resource cost with a tank unit so there aren't any great 2 resource comps that involve x-bows. This might just be the same thing as saying "musk huss is too strong."
I'm hoping this discussion can shed some light on a few reasons why crossbows are underutilized. Maybe the fan-patch developers can mention any changes they have planned relating to either of the two units. Consider the meta-changing power of messing with military balance' we might have a whole new game for years to come if you can get musket/huss (and its equivalents) out of their dominating position from mid-colonial to mid fortress (aka supremacy).
I'm hoping this discussion can shed some light on a few reasons why crossbows are underutilized. Maybe the fan-patch developers can mention any changes they have planned relating to either of the two units. Consider the meta-changing power of messing with military balance' we might have a whole new game for years to come if you can get musket/huss (and its equivalents) out of their dominating position from mid-colonial to mid fortress (aka supremacy).
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
Xbow range makes them valuable especially when mixed with muskets. I did not really read all of this, but if there are specific situations where you want to talk about how to use muskets and xbows then that may be a better way of understanding it.
xbow musket with a few huss to stop raids is already better than musket huss alone. High level france mirrors involve xbows for sure. I feel like this argument is maybe too simple to be complete.
xbow musket with a few huss to stop raids is already better than musket huss alone. High level france mirrors involve xbows for sure. I feel like this argument is maybe too simple to be complete.
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
i think he's being satirical
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
if so well done i like it
-
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
briowl wrote:i think hes being satirical
briowl wrote:if so well done i like it
Schr?dingers Satire.
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
Let me know it if is. It was too long to read
-
- Musketeer
- Posts: 92
- Joined: Sep 13, 2015
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
But it was a good read!
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
yeah I don't think he's being completely serious
Lets talk about Xbows and Muskets
The unit interaction is deeper than just musks being more useful than xbows. I think the unit that is determining colonial compositions is actually the hussar. It gives you the mobility advantage and gives you the ability to control the game. Botched up a fight? You can still retreat. Did he mess up a fight? gg. The fact that you can raid with them and the slow down effect of them just allows you to dictate the game, pick the battles. Whenever Im doing some musk based mirror and someone starts adding xbows I'm really happy because he gave me an excuse to mass up hussars and raid the shit out of him.
It's similair to how fortress compositions work. The determining unit there is the goons. Goons are so fast that they deny hussars from being useful (raids are impossible, and the slow down effect isn't as relevant). The composition doesnt become goon based, but it becomes skirm based because the counter to skirms isn't effective enough. Same with the musks, you can't make xbows (because that allows your opponent to get hussar) which means the optimal composition is just musks.
I'd wonder what would happen to colonial compositions if you removed the slow down animation from hussars. Maybe we would see full xbow compositions then. And maybe if goons didnt have the ability to completely destroy raids because of their speed, maybe we would see skirm huss as the base composition in age 3 (germany would be so OP).
It's similair to how fortress compositions work. The determining unit there is the goons. Goons are so fast that they deny hussars from being useful (raids are impossible, and the slow down effect isn't as relevant). The composition doesnt become goon based, but it becomes skirm based because the counter to skirms isn't effective enough. Same with the musks, you can't make xbows (because that allows your opponent to get hussar) which means the optimal composition is just musks.
I'd wonder what would happen to colonial compositions if you removed the slow down animation from hussars. Maybe we would see full xbow compositions then. And maybe if goons didnt have the ability to completely destroy raids because of their speed, maybe we would see skirm huss as the base composition in age 3 (germany would be so OP).
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests