Treaty 40 patch suggestions thread

[ocemilky]

Otto
I??m not sure, but giving them an age1 mill card might be good as well as making them gather xp slightly faster to make up for getting no xp from making villagers. Making jans and/or horse archers better vs cav is probably also a good idea.

I didn''t make otto gain xp any faster, you might be confused with the esoc fp.

I think a lot of your comments are interesting, however I disagree with your stance on team cards. Your culvs shouldn''t need to take 3 shots to kill simply because of team cards. There''s no skill in gaining such a huge advantage like that. There''s no skill in getting 2 sw, 3 vill, team mills and team sawmills and team medicine. It''s stupid imo and if anything it makes the game more shallow as you will be more inclined to pick certain civs with others (e.g in a 3v3 if you want to play dutch you need to have a ger team mate). You shouldn''t be picking civs based on their team cards. You should be picking civs based on what you feel like playing, the match up, the style you want to play or whatever. If your style is head to head and you''re in a port mirror say, and your opponent gets team sw/mills and you don''t, that''s a distinct advantage that they got for free (in relation to them). It''s not very fair.

I agree that a "patch" should have the least amount of changes possible. However this isn''t even a draft of a patch. I''m just messing around with a couple of people seeing what works, what doesn''t, theorycrafting and testing. I''d say that at least 60% of my list has/will be altered or removed at some stage.

Again, thanks for the in depth feedback!

[ocemilky]

Give india infinite mango grove card.

They already get infinite 1300 w whats the prob. The only real prob as far as I think is france is just bit overdone, and maybe china to bit extent.(as far as andes is considered) on other maps maybe russia TI is maybe a gamechanger but removing the team effect should fix it. Japan ppl are only considered abt daimyo running which again depends on your response times

Yep. I think with france just having a unique huss type unit thats slightly different is unique and fun. At the moment, people who play non-op france just dont make gendarme so its not exactly game changing there. Nerfing their insane natives and bringing their art back down to earth is good. I think overall France will be in a good place, with some altering of numbers for gendarme/cards.

Regards to Russia, they probably dont need the HC as you have mentioned before. Ill see if we can do more testing with &' without inf HC on several maps to see how it goes. I dont think opri are even that strong, maybe a slight nerf to their siege damage but I dont really want to kill the unit. I think strelets +2 range is a good change without really buffing their military.

Japan is a bit iffy. Yes I think Daimyo/Shoguns being removed is essential. Yes I think their eco should be buffed too. Their plantation cards definitely need combining. Im unsure what to do to go about shrine/eco buffs in general. I think giving 5 more vills is good in relation to their army size, but Im wary of overbuffing shrines. I will continue to ponder and discuss this.

[howlingwolfpaw]

simple change, make gends train 10% slower with the 10% cost card. its just backwards.

make opri speed 6.25

dymos are fun and exciting but japan units so strong with them that any eco buff makes them really OP, but as some mentioned. just make training bonus apply at barracks and slowertrain at actual dymos. maybe not let the Tokugawa dymo train artillery.

[martinspjuth]

Otto
I??m not sure, but giving them an age1 mill card might be good as well as making them gather xp slightly faster to make up for getting no xp from making villagers. Making jans and/or horse archers better vs cav is probably also a good idea.

I didnt make otto gain xp any faster, you might be confused with the esoc fp.

Even if u didnt make otto gain xp faster i think it could be a good idea. Would be nice for them to get out 2nd facktory on time as well as has out a bit more military cards at 40, making them a bit stronger in the early stages of the fight.

I think a lot of your comments are interesting, however I disagree with your stance on team cards. Your culvs shouldnt need to take 3 shots to kill simply because of team cards. Theres no skill in gaining such a huge advantage like that. Theres no skill in getting 2 sw, 3 vill, team mills and team sawmills and team medicine. Its stupid imo and if anything it makes the game more shallow as you will be more inclined to pick certain civs with others (e.g in a 3v3 if you want to play dutch you need to have a ger team mate). You shouldnt be picking civs based on their team cards. You should be picking civs based on what you feel like playing, the match up, the style you want to play or whatever. If your style is head to head and youre in a port mirror say, and your opponent gets team sw/mills and you dont, thats a distinct advantage that they got for free (in relation to them). Its not very fair.

I agree 3 shot culvs are a very strong advantage, but considering that u need 2 of these 3 civs (Port, Otto, India) it doesnt happen that often. As it is now, only Port is a tier 1 civ, so if u get 3 shot culvs, then u r probably in dissadvantage in at least 1 of the main battles thanks to the civ mu (for example maybe Otto is forced to fight Port or German). 3 shot culvs are not that big of an advantage considering the dissadvantage Otto/India can have in their battle. And for sw Ger needs to send a card that doesnt rly help themself much at all, making them miss one military card. Is a pretty fair trade. And if you boost the sioux and dutch eco, they wont be so dependent on a ger tm mate. For more normal tm cards like 15% inf hp or 10% mill gathering, sure it is an advantage. But in most cases you will have one bonus and your enemy another making it quite fair and you can try to force the battle to be in a way that you get out the most of your bonus while he doesnt get out much of his. A game must also be pretty close if 10% mill or similar should be game changing. Those bonuses can however give the small boost needed for a player to stand up to a slightly better player and making a good fight of it (ofc it can work other way around as well and making the worse player simply lose even harder). How tm card will work with all other changes is harder to say, if all civs become pretty close in strenght, then maybe tm cards will give to much of a boost. Still every tm should have their set of tm cards, so just removing OP tm cards like 3 shot culvs and faster training cards could be enough. Perhaps even add a tm card to civs that do not have any decent one, like Sioux and perhaps Spain (not that many civs benefit from tm hand inf combat) so that they also give something to the tm.

[iNcog]

Honestly I think it could be interesting to look into changing the late game of Russia, France, Japan and China. If the late-game of those civs could be nerfed without affecting supremacy, maybe something could be worked into the EP. MAYBE

I'm keeping an eye on this thread and I'm going to badger the EP team to look into some changes if they can be done without affecting 1v1 SUP.

[momuuu]

Honestly I think it could be interesting to look into changing the late game of Russia, France, Japan and China. If the late-game of those civs could be nerfed without affecting supremacy, maybe something could be worked into the EP. MAYBE

I''m keeping an eye on this thread and I''m going to badger the EP team to look into some changes if they can be done without affecting 1v1 SUP.

Technically almost all changes can be done without affecting 1v1 sup by tweaking the boosts imperial capitol and unit upgrades do. You could maybe even add capitol upgrades to achieve the desired effects.

[princeofcarthage]

They already get infinite 1300 w whats the prob. The only real prob as far as I think is france is just bit overdone, and maybe china to bit extent.(as far as andes is considered) on other maps maybe russia TI is maybe a gamechanger but removing the team effect should fix it. Japan ppl are only considered abt daimyo running which again depends on your response times

Yep. I think with france just having a unique huss type unit thats slightly different is unique and fun. At the moment, people who play non-op france just dont make gendarme so its not exactly game changing there. Nerfing their insane natives and bringing their art back down to earth is good. I think overall France will be in a good place, with some altering of numbers for gendarme/cards.

Regards to Russia, they probably dont need the HC as you have mentioned before. Ill see if we can do more testing with &' without inf HC on several maps to see how it goes. I dont think opri are even that strong, maybe a slight nerf to their siege damage but I dont really want to kill the unit. I think strelets +2 range is a good change without really buffing their military.

Japan is a bit iffy. Yes I think Daimyo/Shoguns being removed is essential. Yes I think their eco should be buffed too. Their plantation cards definitely need combining. Im unsure what to do to go about shrine/eco buffs in general. I think giving 5 more vills is good in relation to their army size, but Im wary of overbuffing shrines. I will continue to ponder and discuss this.

I already suggested nerfing opri siege (or specifically a negative multiplier against walls) as far as japan is considered I dont want to kill their unique ability to train units from daimyo so i suggested that bakafu card( increases train rate for barracks and stable rather than daimyo) also other train rate cards such as flaming arrows affect castle. that should be enough to give response to daimyo running if someone attempts.

[Cometk]

wolfpaw actually mentioned reducing oprichnik's speed, which i think is a genius idea. if you reduce their siege then they become a pointless unit. but if you reduce the speed then their box running becomes much less effective while maintaining opri's flavor and use to split.

[Papist]

Daimyo don't need to be removed, just make it so Togugawa can't train mortars. Add some new bonus, like maybe Russian consulate so Japan can get a factory wagon.

If you want to get gends under control, might I suggest giving them melee resist instead of ranged resist? This would make goons a realistic counter again, while not destroying the gendarme's potential as a cav unit. Also, tweak then so that they train fast instead of instantly (like they do now before Thoroughbreds.).

[noissance]

Give japan the avility to make dojos, and slow down damiyos.

[ocemilky]

I do like the idea of nerfing opri speed as opposed to their other stats, thanks!

Yeah I don't like killing what makes a civ unique, However you could also look at it this way: if you only use daimyo/shogun, there is no way an opponent can kill your fb without a massive push or mismicro onto the daimyo. Seriously I think it's an issue. Every single civ in the game needs to make buildings to train units, thus if they lose position they get pushed back, first and foremost by mortars. I think the hidden power of Japan is that they can't really be mortared down to get pushed in. I think it's really stupid. Sure it's unique but it's such a huge advantage for free. Do you guys agree with me or do you think it's not that big of a deal?

I have been thinking of removing their ability to train units but they can keep their auras and possibly nerf their units' base stats slightly. Sort of like spain but you only need to have two of them. What you guys think?

[princeofcarthage]

Like I said if you change the card to reduce train rate for barracks and stable instead of daimyo, daimyo train units far way slow giving enough time to respond.

[dicktator]

I do like the idea of nerfing opri speed as opposed to their other stats, thanks!

Yeah I don''t like killing what makes a civ unique, However you could also look at it this way: if you only use daimyo/shogun, there is no way an opponent can kill your fb without a massive push or mismicro onto the daimyo. Seriously I think it''s an issue. Every single civ in the game needs to make buildings to train units, thus if they lose position they get pushed back, first and foremost by mortars. I think the hidden power of Japan is that they can''t really be mortared down to get pushed in. I think it''s really stupid. Sure it''s unique but it''s such a huge advantage for free. Do you guys agree with me or do you think it''s not that big of a deal?

I have been thinking of removing their ability to train units but they can keep their auras and possibly nerf their units'' base stats slightly. Sort of like spain but you only need to have two of them. What you guys think?

I don''t think it''s a big deal because the rather huge downside of daiymos is that the units trained from them have no spawn point, so you have to individually micro every unit batch to the fight. That said, shoguns either need their training time nerfed or the ability to train mortars from them needs to be taken away, maybe the training time for daiymos should be nerfed as well. If a daiymo somehow gets in an opponents base, the opponent would use the buildings inside of his base to immediately spam huss/goons/whatever to kill it. The daiymo might get 20 ashi out before dying, which might kill about 10 vills, nbd. If a shogun gets in an opponents base, that is two free factories, because the shogun can quickly spawn 10 46 range mortars. Another thing OP about shoguns being able to train mortars is that sometimes you don''t even have to get in to do damage. Just send your shogun to the edge of your opponents base walls and queue mortars, usually it''s possible to kill some houses and maybe even a stray factory. Take away (or nerf) the ability of the shogun to train mortars and that should solve most of the imbalances of daiymos and shoguns.

[evilcheadar]

I do like the idea of nerfing opri speed as opposed to their other stats, thanks!

Yeah I dont like killing what makes a civ unique, However you could also look at it this way: if you only use daimyo/shogun, there is no way an opponent can kill your fb without a massive push or mismicro onto the daimyo. Seriously I think its an issue. Every single civ in the game needs to make buildings to train units, thus if they lose position they get pushed back, first and foremost by mortars. I think the hidden power of Japan is that they cant really be mortared down to get pushed in. I think its really stupid. Sure its unique but its such a huge advantage for free. Do you guys agree with me or do you think its not that big of a deal?

I have been thinking of removing their ability to train units but they can keep their auras and possibly nerf their units base stats slightly. Sort of like spain but you only need to have two of them. What you guys think?

I dont think its a big deal because the rather huge downside of daiymos is that the units trained from them have no spawn point, so you have to individually micro every unit batch to the fight. ?That said, shoguns either need their training time nerfed or the ability to train mortars from them needs to be taken away, maybe the training time for daiymos should be nerfed as well. ?If a daiymo somehow gets in an opponents base, the opponent would use the buildings inside of his base to immediately spam huss/goons/whatever to kill it. ?The daiymo might get 20 ashi out before dying, which might kill about 10 vills, nbd. ?If a shogun gets in an opponents base, that is two free factories, because the shogun can quickly spawn 10 46 range mortars. ?Another thing OP about shoguns being able to train mortars is that sometimes you dont even have to get in to do damage. ?Just send your shogun to the edge of your opponents base walls and queue mortars, usually its possible to kill some houses and maybe even a stray factory. Take away (or nerf) the ability of the shogun to train mortars and that should solve most of the imbalances of daiymos and shoguns.

WhAt nub has a stray factory sitting on the side of his base.

[martinspjuth]

I think it could be good if daimos wasnt allowed to train units close to enemy first tc. It is insane that 1 unit slinking trough your wall can turn into 10 musk or even mortars.

[charlemagen]

I think daimos are just a dumb concept and 100 percent need to be removed

[momuuu]

It could be interesting to kinda find a way to reduce the wall spam, because I think thatd reduce the lag and pathing issues by quite a bit. Maybe theres other things that cause lag aswell that could be looked into (for example the villagers moving around on mills and plantations, which has already been mentioned).

[Papist]

Don't delete daimyos. They are the thing that makes Japan a unique and powerful civ - without them Japan has far less going for it militarily. Just strip daimyos of their mortars and they are automatically fine - they don't train units very quickly anyways.

[Papist]

It could be interesting to kinda find a way to reduce the wall spam, because I think thatd reduce the lag and pathing issues by quite a bit. Maybe theres other things that cause lag aswell that could be looked into (for example the villagers moving around on mills and plantations, which has already been mentioned).

Take away the native villages and only leave the sockets (like they do on FWG maps). The native sites get in the way, and there is animation involved in the villages (native dudes doing stuff), which creates lag.

[_NiceKING_]

1. Siege Elephant. Increase range from 28 to 32
2. Mosque card "Janissary shipment". Reduce Janissary training time by 20% or change the effect of the age 4 card that makes them cheaper to reducing their training time.
3. Dont remove Ranching
4. Dont remove 2 explorer card
5. Remove Tokugawa. Dont remove Daimyo. Reduce the effect of the training time card from 100% to ~30% and let it also affect barracks, stables and castles or only barracks, stables and castles

Btw, AbusGun does not have damage bonus vs RangedCavalry in StaggerRangedAttack and DefendRangedAttack modes

[Papist]

If you guys are smart, you will open a channel with the EP designers and try to implement your changes there. We already have 1 sub-community siphoning people off of mainstream ESO - we don;t need another.

Besides, aren't there like 10 active treaty players?

[iNcog]

maybe some smart changes can be implemented in the esoc patch. changes which would affect treaty only without make sup changes.

could be something which affects cuirs only late or some shit like that

[momuuu]

Theres a specific age that only happens in treaty: imperial age. Im pretty sure the balance could be tweakef through the imperial upgrades.

Although it would be extremely tough to make work.

[Papist]

Theres a specific age that only happens in treaty: imperial age. Im pretty sure the balance could be tweakef through the imperial upgrades.

Although it would be extremely tough to make work.

It wouldn't be that difficult. A lot of nerfs and buffs can come in the form of age 4 cards and whatnot, which don't have much effect on supremacy. I don't think there is anything the tr community wants that would be terrible for supremacy balance.

[djunjuppeke]

Japan needs embassies. Maybe a small buff to flaming arrows too. But thats dangerous, as they will be on the brink of being op then. Now they certainly arent OP heads up. As they lose to Port, Ger, France, Brits, Spain, Russia. Perhaps its range should be increased from 28 to 30. Still less than a culv. But the rest of Japans army/eco makes up for that.
Daymio and Shogun are ok. They are strong yes, but easely sniped and then your pop can come down very fast.
I dont think Japanese units need to be nerfed, same goes for their techs/bonusses.
Every Japanese unit has its drawbacks. For example the ashi is an op tanker with insane bonusses vs cav but they get ripped apart by rods as they have a lower melee resistance than normal musk.
And Japan just has no cannon at all The Flaming Arrow is just rediculously weak and has 28 range. Thats why Japan can never compete with most eurocivs.

About the Japanese eco: its huge. It doesnt need to buffed. You hit around 1950-2000 @40 on andes in a 1v1. But it has a very low base score: ~700-800, just like Sioux. So its eco is bigger than you would think.