What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

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What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

Title says it all. I think the meta could look dramatically different, since some major things in AOE take advantage of a player not playing well. Let say in scenario 1, the computer has absolutely perfect mechanics and PR35-40 strategy. In scenario 2, the computer has perfect mechanics and perfect strategy:

Some things I think would change in scenario 1:
Tanking units such as huss would be a lot worse
Raids will be either a LOT more effective or a LOT more ineffective (not sure which)
Games will be much more passive, as an AI could abuse defenders advantage to the max

Scenario 2:
I have no idea
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:Title says it all. I think the meta could look dramatically different, since some major things in AOE take advantage of a player not playing well. Let say in scenario 1, the computer has absolutely perfect mechanics and PR35-40 strategy. In scenario 2, the computer has perfect mechanics and perfect strategy:

Some things I think would change in scenario 1:
Tanking units such as huss would be a lot worse
Raids will be either a LOT more effective or a LOT more ineffective (not sure which)
Games will be much more passive, as an AI could abuse defenders advantage to the max

Scenario 2:
I have no idea


Scenario 1:
No, the game would be more agressive since it s easier to mind game in late game.
I'd say that the AI would go for some agressive musk/huss strat and base trade a lot because he'd do more damages.

Scenario 2:
The comp would surprise you every game or play like diarouga.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Garja »

The AI would pick a rush civ and just rush over and over and over.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

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Garja wrote:The AI would pick a rush civ and just rush over and over and over.

Well lets assume we are playing 2 computers vs each other
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Garja »

Ye I think that with perfect play (and perhaps perfect knowledge which is the limiting thing) the rush wins.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think the ai would use a civ with good late game and good ranged units. All melee units would get kited to death and he would split his skirms/goons/whatever perfectly and decimate them really fast. With his perfect defense skills, he would literally be able to kill any army under tc without ever getting his vils shot (because whenever a unit starts its shooting animation to shoot at a vil he would pull it back into tc then pop it again). So you wouldn't really be able to push him. I think with good late game civs like jap france russia china he would shit on anything else
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

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Garja wrote:Ye I think that with perfect play (and perhaps perfect knowledge which is the limiting thing) the rush wins.

But the other comp can just do the same BO or slightly greedier as the rush but win with defenders advantage. Also the comp wouldnt have perfect knowledge, itd still have to scout.What do you think wpuld make the comp so much better at rushing than a human? The micro? The quick decisions?
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Garja »

ovi12 wrote:
Garja wrote:Ye I think that with perfect play (and perhaps perfect knowledge which is the limiting thing) the rush wins.

But the other comp can just do the same BO or slightly greedier as the rush but win with defenders advantage. Also the comp wouldnt have perfect knowledge, itd still have to scout.What do you think wpuld make the comp so much better at rushing than a human? The micro? The quick decisions?

In case of a mirror they probably both start with aggressive build and the they reach an equilibrium from there.
It is not the rush that becomes better it is just that an Aztec rush with perfect micro and perfect game knowledge (not necessarily perfect information) would probably just result in a win, no matter of the answer of the opponent. Basically I'm just saying the PC would just use the most forcing way to win over and over.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

Kaiserklein wrote:I think the ai would use a civ with good late game and good ranged units. All melee units would get kited to death and he would split his skirms/goons/whatever perfectly and decimate them really fast. With his perfect defense skills, he would literally be able to kill any army under tc without ever getting his vils shot (because whenever a unit starts its shooting animation to shoot at a vil he would pull it back into tc then pop it again). So you wouldn't really be able to push him. I think with good late game civs like jap france russia china he would shit on anything else


Yeah i think he could use the defenders advantage much better but if it was comp vs comp the enemy comp wouldnt shoot any vills either
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Garja wrote:Ye I think that with perfect play (and perhaps perfect knowledge which is the limiting thing) the rush wins.

But the other comp can just do the same BO or slightly greedier as the rush but win with defenders advantage. Also the comp wouldnt have perfect knowledge, itd still have to scout.What do you think wpuld make the comp so much better at rushing than a human? The micro? The quick decisions?

In case of a mirror they probably both start with aggressive build and the they reach an equilibrium from there.
It is not the rush that becomes better it is just that an Aztec rush with perfect micro and perfect game knowledge (not necessarily perfect information) would probably just result in a win, no matter of the answer of the opponent. Basically I'm just saying the PC would just use the most forcing way to win over and over.

That's not true.
If you do the exact same build with a tp you'll win.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:I think the ai would use a civ with good late game and good ranged units. All melee units would get kited to death and he would split his skirms/goons/whatever perfectly and decimate them really fast. With his perfect defense skills, he would literally be able to kill any army under tc without ever getting his vils shot (because whenever a unit starts its shooting animation to shoot at a vil he would pull it back into tc then pop it again). So you wouldn't really be able to push him. I think with good late game civs like jap france russia china he would shit on anything else


Yeah i think he could use the defenders advantage much better but if it was comp vs comp the enemy comp wouldnt shoot any vills either

Oh you're talking about comp vs comp, then they would just adapt and end up playing no rush honestly.
But vs a human they would definitely be agressive.
Honestly, one could think a computer would just boom while having enough units to hold but imo they would timing your fb at one point.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:I think the ai would use a civ with good late game and good ranged units. All melee units would get kited to death and he would split his skirms/goons/whatever perfectly and decimate them really fast. With his perfect defense skills, he would literally be able to kill any army under tc without ever getting his vils shot (because whenever a unit starts its shooting animation to shoot at a vil he would pull it back into tc then pop it again). So you wouldn't really be able to push him. I think with good late game civs like jap france russia china he would shit on anything else


Yeah i think he could use the defenders advantage much better but if it was comp vs comp the enemy comp wouldnt shoot any vills either

Oh you're talking about comp vs comp, then they would just adapt and end up playing no rush honestly.
But vs a human they would definitely be agressive.
Honestly, one could think a computer would just boom while having enough units to hold but imo they would timing your fb at one point.



Well yeah im interested in both comp vs comp and comp vs player
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by _venox_ »

The non-rush civ can just use 5 wood walls and delay the rush so long that he can hold. After all with perfect micro the walls are cheap enough and won't pose a problem to build perfectly.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Garja »

Aside from mm and TC fire this game as a bias toward offensive play. Aggressive play used consciously (like just making enough to always be in control of the game) is something that a computer would certainly do and the other computer would do the same to answer it.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Kaiserklein »

You also pop units directly in the battle when you defend. You have vils to punch army as I said. And you can turtle and train RI, using pathing issues.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Garja »

Ye but all of this is inefficient. The moment the AI scouts that he's gonna adapt, atleast if it is programmed to have perfect knowledge.
I mean in certain MUs obviously. In others it's just better to not really rush. But what I mean is that an AI will always test the opponent defense anyway.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Mitoe »

I think the game would still look relatively uncertain to be honest. Some unit comps may have been proven to be superior (or inferior) to others because it has perfect mechanics, but in theory perfect strategy isn't really possible because most of the time in RTS games you have imperfect information about the opponent.

Most players work off of assumptions or educated guesses to determine their own strategy and their opponents, with less scouting then they should have. However, even a computer wouldn't be able to scout everything and know exactly what you're doing at any given time.

I guess this might lead it to play fairly aggressively the majority of the time, since this gives it the most information (through constant poking into the opponent's base) and control over what is happening in the game. So I guess if there would be any meta shift it would be this one.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

Yes I think bow pike would possibly be better than musk huss, it seems to be in very small numbers at least. Yeah they couldn't make a perfect strategy but based on the probabilities of certain events happening they could pick the best possible choice. So maybe if you want to take a game off the computer you would have to play very unpredictably. Tbh I think @Aizamk would have the best chance of beating it lol
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by n0el »

Pretty much you guys want to see piroshiki using a real build order.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by sdsanft »

It's obvious to me that with two perfect ais, the one with the worst spawn would win. No matter what, if you have random spawns then the map will have some sort of imbalance even if it's so small no human could take advantage of it.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

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sdsanft wrote:It's obvious to me that with two perfect ais, the one with the worst spawn would win. No matter what, if you have random spawns then the map will have some sort of imbalance even if it's so small no human could take advantage of it.

You mean best spawn. I don't think it's the case 100% of the time, because the computers wouldn't have perfect knowledge so there would still be some luck. Also if it's not a mirror this definitely doesn't apply at all.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Mitoe »

ovi12 wrote:Yes I think bow pike would possibly be better than musk huss, it seems to be in very small numbers at least. Yeah they couldn't make a perfect strategy but based on the probabilities of certain events happening they could pick the best possible choice. So maybe if you want to take a game off the computer you would have to play very unpredictably. Tbh I think @Aizamk would have the best chance of beating it lol

I don't think it would be very difficult to beat consistently to be honest.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

Mitoe wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Yes I think bow pike would possibly be better than musk huss, it seems to be in very small numbers at least. Yeah they couldn't make a perfect strategy but based on the probabilities of certain events happening they could pick the best possible choice. So maybe if you want to take a game off the computer you would have to play very unpredictably. Tbh I think @Aizamk would have the best chance of beating it lol

I don't think it would be very difficult to beat consistently to be honest.

How would you beat it? It has PR35+ strategy and perfect mechanics.
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Re: What would the meta look like if we had a smart AI with perfect mechanics?

Post by Mitoe »

ovi12 wrote:I don't think it would be very difficult to beat consistently to be honest.

How would you beat it? It has PR35+ strategy and perfect mechanics.[/quote]
Like I said before, it has imperfect information. So there are a few things you can do.

One that comes to mind is just moving units in and out of LOS on different parts of the map. You can either keep them there or leave. A computer should respond the instant a unit appears on the minimap: either by moving units to intercept or moving villagers etc. Because you're also working outside of LOS a lot of the time when doing this it won't necessarily be able to predict the best course of action (moving vills or sending units to defend).

I think you should be able to invite it to make actions that can be punished in this sense (e.g. ambushing units that go to catch your raid).

Or at the same time, just hide your whole army and wait for it to attack your base and try to trap it. As long as it hasn't scouted you, it has no way of knowing what your unit composition is or where it is.


Basically, unless you gave it maphack I don't think it would do the best strategy all the time, or even the majority of the time. There are probably a lot of cheese builds you can do vs it tbh. Or even standard builds and just doing small things like cutting certain unit types out of your composition for a short period of time to counter something they're doing. It would be mostly about how well you can deny it from scouting you.

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