whos the best teamplayer of all time?

[DaRkNiTe1698]

I think @H2O_

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was already top in 2007 so he probably has the best perspective out of anyone on this forums, unless I am missing someone.

Yes but he has never been a good team player.

Because he didn't focus as much as on 1v1, imo

[lordraphael]

@lordrhapael

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for me old meta Is from 2005-09 and i agree whit you. But for me Is frustrating looking guys that are max 36-35 think they are better then grunt or others old pro. And they Just got mad Becouse their are like kids Who saying all the time i'm the best the best then got owned easy by a rusty pro Who come back. I Express my opinion in a polite way. This replies Just show how jelousy some people Can Be and how low skills. Totally get made and try to make made the.other attacking what?? Italy Italy Italy. Xage Who was. Ahahaha i understand some kids have mind problems and i don't get this stuff so seriously. Ruthless >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You already cant count 2005 because the game was published at the end of octobre and suffered unstable severs upon release. Also a meta has to develop ive seen old replays their builds are hilarious. So you might wanna start from 2006. Arguably aoe had his prime in 2007 /08 because it was a WCG game back then. But we still have H2o, Goodspeed as remnants of the old times and while h2o may still be the best, there are players that could beat him and some already have. So your claim that old players are like some demigods that can never be reached by todays players is nothing more than a biased opinion by you.

[Dolan]

Nice post, can you link the vod ?

Can't find it anymore. It was a tourney game on Pampas, Kumruke lost.

I think it's this one, but it's captured on low-quality settings:
http://nviewer.mobi/player?video_id=sm13939873

Here's the only VOD I could find on youtube:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiC8ACieX3I[/video]

There are some more on nicovideo if you have an account or can use FB to log in.

[r4go]

@goodspeed

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thaks dude, Yes my english Is bad and hard to understand but i'm agree. I know what i'm saying :)
@lordrahpael

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i never said people can't get better, you miss something. I Just said the metà was Active, more players more talents and more better players. One can Be better, you are better then you was in 2010 or 2012, aizk too. And i'm not acting. I Just say my opinion and some kids are not able to discuss. If you think Ronaldo Is the best player of all.the time. I don't say you no in an aggressive way. I Will said i'm not agree for me Is Maradona. This Is what i said and what i did.

[r4go]

@goodspeed

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thaks dude, Yes my english Is bad and hard to understand but i'm agree. I know what i'm saying :)
@lordrahpael

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i never said people can't get better, you miss something. I Just said the metà was Active, more players more talents and more better players. One can Be better, you are better then you was in 2010 or 2012, aizk too. And i'm not acting. I Just say my opinion and some kids are not able to discuss. If you think Ronaldo Is the best player of all.the time. I don't say you no in an aggressive way. I Will said i'm not agree for me Is Maradona. This Is what i said and what i did.

[Aizamk]

@aiz

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also you don't Attack on naction Just becouse One don't think you are the best of all the time . I said i see a lot of mistakes and mistakes are mistakes. Not excuse old new future or hippy metà for that.
Relax guy

I don't claim to be "better" than old school players, and never did in my post. As rapha said, you can't make a comparison between current players and old players. There's no denying that old school players had on average better mechanics (due to how many high level players there were at the time = good competition and good VARIETY of sparring partners), but mechanics aren't all that make a player good or bad.

On one end of the spectrum there's people like you who think that old school players were gods who could do no wrong, and then on the other end there's people like diarouga who think that current players are way better than old school. Unless you were around from then until now AND have been good enough at the game, from that time until now, to be able to evaluate an opponent's skill level, then your opinion does not have substance.

A personal experience of rekt by a player 8 years ago is no method of evaluating their skill. When the skill disparity is large, only someone who played at the same level would know what they are talking about. To give an exaggerated example, a PR 5 cannot tell the difference between a PR 25 winning vs him or a PR 40 winning vs him, but a PR 20 would have a decent idea.

I just get really annoyed when people talk in absolutes.

As for my apparent flame of Italian players, I think you were missing the obvious garja reference (I see rapha has pointed it out now). Both him and you tend to subscribe to the "My opinion is fact" school of thought

[r4go]

@lordraphael

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One time h20 was better (2008). Now he Is rusty. Anyway 2005 was launched. Server was a shit right. And there was like 800 ppl.online. age started to Be populated in 2006

[r4go]

@aiz

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i think so you Need to read all my comments and see i said my opinion and i was attacked. As you say now meta is op in the same way i Can say no. I think we can compare it. If you think no oks. I Just preferisco to don't see comment like Kabul did. That Is what i'm also saying

[Zutazuta]

Mods can we please update the poll to be "who is the second best teamplayer of all time." Based on discussion, it's safe to assume we are in agreement that Victor_swe tops the list.

[princeofkabul]

@aiz

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i think so you Need to read all my comments and see i said my opinion and i was attacked. As you say now meta is op in the same way i Can say no. I think we can compare it. If you think no oks. I Just preferisco to don't see comment like Kabul did. That Is what i'm also saying

what comment you mean.

[lordraphael]

@lordraphael

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One time h20 was better (2008). Now he Is rusty. Anyway 2005 was launched. Server was a shit right. And there was like 800 ppl.online. age started to Be populated in 2006

He is not rusty lol. His skill may have slightly declined over time due to getting older and playing less overall but saying hes rusty is an extreme exaggeration.And I think thats whats pissing people like prince off. H2o practiced just as much if not more for the finals than I did. You say Old players> new ones ( im not evne opposed to that argument I see it like aizamk does) and if someone brings up a counter ( like I did ) you shut it down without knowing anything. Im sure if H2o had won youd have used it as an another example that old players are superior to new players.

[Jaeger]

Mods can we please update the poll to be "who is the second best teamplayer of all time." Based on discussion, it's safe to assume we are in agreement that Victor_swe tops the list.

I would say he occupies 2nd and 3rd as well, one time he 1v3'ed numbers 4, 5, & 6 all by himself

[Garja]

At the end of the day the difference between old and new players is that old players had to discover stuff by themselves, now most of relevant information is public. Pretty much of same difference between pre and post PC era players in chess.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

To shine a light on some things and hopefully prevent people from derailing even more than I have unfortunately seen in the last year, here is my take.

I have been around for a long time, since mid 2009 when I first started, until now, with some short and long breaks in between. As such, I have seen and experienced a lot regarding the gameplay/skill (increased), respect towards others (decreased), average bullshit talking (increased) and overall player base (decreased).

I have to say that by respecting the more experienced people when I started to play, listening to their feedback and evaluating both their and my gameplay, I was able to rise rather quickly. I have played a lot with high level teamplayers over time such as the Challe's, Samwise's, Darwin's, Kumruke's, Nagayumi's and Blackstars'. As for the arguments that the older players were more active and good back in the days, that is surely the case as everyone has a certain top period. Both for example Challe and Samwise who came back some times later, were not at the same top level as they were before. Not just because I became better, but because it felt that way seeing their gameplay. That said, I really believe as Raphael has said as well, that people and the gameplay improve over time if they practise enough. I have played over the years, with lots of different people, both with the "west" and with "japanese" (Shmras, Nagayumi, Kumruke, StSt, etc are often forgotten), and experienced a lot of different styles and skills. More variations in teamgames and strats are figured out and build orders perfected over time (this also led to some of the "balance/civ banning" issues on the higher level. Though I have to say that this perhaps has gone a little too far in a few specific cases, as there still is room for variations and more precise teamplay, but thats another discussion ). However, as the player base has decreased, the game isnt as competitive now as like 4 years ago, which means as Aiz and GS have said, less practicing and not as many sparring partners.

As in reply to such non-arguments as yours Rago (how come your opinion changes like 180 degrees whatever direction the wind blows?, you should really put some more thought in your arguments first and not present it as facts). If you think that Im not a good teamplayer, you are ofc free to say so. I do want to emphasize that I have had a lot of experience over time, with the "old pros" as well (when I also had around 2750 elo and pr40, which meant more than nowadays) and you havent played in any of those games. Also, right now I am not as good as I was at my top obviously. Im not playing as much so Im slower and my BO's not as sharp. Players often reach their top at different times, making it harder to compare. For example, Prince and Diarouga have become very good lately, and thus reached their tops later than a Samwise, Musketjr, Me or Blackstar.

Also Stanley and Hazza have an interesting point. Good coordination is very important in teamgames, as I have been doing and advocating, and some people just have a better flow together. That said, on the highest level most thoughts and decisions will be almost identical from both players in the team, meaning they will likely do and expect similar things. Still, as teamgames can imo offer a little more "teamed variety" its of major importance to tune the strategy for the whole team to make it as neat as possible, as then both can adapt their BO's accordingly.

Finally, I dont consider myself the top teamplayer of all time. However, I do think that, at my top, I was very good and playing with other people (pr40+ games), and would say more like a top 15 (not including some of current fake elos).

If you ask me, its really hard point out one or two top players. An easy thing to say is that this X224231 guy was good, but nothing OP imo. He was just laming iro properly and able to raid well with lots of uhlans all over the place. A top teamplayer consists of more imo. As for Samwise, sure he was very good, but as the teamgames got more figured out, I feel a lot of people at the top were similar. I have not that much experience with MrCheese, Starsky, and similar before end of 2009. H20 is ofc op in 1/1, but just plays teamgames more like 1/1, same for Raphael probably, which doesnt always work well, as you dont always get the most coherent strats (although 2/2 on a high level has a lot of similarities to 1/1). Ofc they are still very good at it.

So, all in all, taking into account the players over the years, the best teamplayers would probably be these (alphabetic order, as I believe they are more or less interchangeable AT THEIR TOPS):
Aklak, Blackstar, Challe, Darwins (russia only lol), Kumruke, Lord_Sami, MusketJr, Nagayumi, NaturePhoenix, PrinceOfKabul, Samwise, Shmras, Snowww, StSt, Veni. Perhaps Kiljardi in his prime as well.

[Jaeger]

To shine a light on some things and hopefully prevent people from derailing even more than I have unfortunately seen in the last year, here is my take.

I have been around for a long time, since mid 2009 when I first started, until now, with some short and long breaks in between. As such, I have seen and experienced a lot regarding the gameplay/skill (increased), respect towards others (decreased), average bullshit talking (increased) and overall player base (decreased).

In the start I was ofc lower ranked, but I have played a lot with high level teamplayers over time such as the Challe's, Samwise's, Darwin's, Kumruke's, Nagayumi's and Blackstars'. As for the arguments that the older players were more active and good back in the days, that is surely the case as everyone has a certain top period. Both for example Challe and Samwise who came back some times later, were not at the same top level as they were before. Not just because I became better, but because it felt that way seeing their gameplay. That said, I really believe as Raphael has said as well, that people and the gameplay improve over time. I have played over the years, with lots of different people, both with the "west" and with "japs" (Shmras, Nagayumi, Kumruke, StSt, etc are often forgotten), and experienced a lot of different styles and skills. More variations in teamgames and strats are figured out and build orders perfected over time (this also led to some of the "balance/civ banning" issues on the higher level. Though I have to say that this perhaps has gone a little too far in a few specific cases, as there still is room for variations and more precise teamplay, but thats another discussion ). However, as the player base has decreased, the game isnt as competitive now as like 5 years ago, which means as Aiz and GS have said, less hours playing and not as many sparring partners.

As in reply to such non-arguments as yours Rago (how come your opinion changes like 180 degrees whatever direction the wind blows?, you should really put some more thought in your arguments first). If you think that Im not a good teamplayer, you are ofc free to say so. I do want to emphasize that I have had a lot of experience over time, with the "old pros" as well (when I also had around 2750 elo and pr40, which meant more than nowadays) and you havent played in any of those games. Also, right now I am not as good as I was at my top obviously. Players often reach their top at different times, making it harder to compare. For example, Prince and Diarouga have become very good lately, and thus reached their tops later than a Samwise, Musketjr, Me or Blackstar.

Also Stanley and Hazza have an interesting point. Good coordination is very important in teamgames, as I have been doing and advocating, and some people just have a better flow together. That said, on the highest level most thoughts and decisions will be almost identical from both players in the team, meaning they will likely do and expect similar things. Still, as teamgames can imo offer a little more "teamed variety" its of major importance to tune the strategy for the whole team to make it as neat as possible, as then both can adapt their BO's accordingly.

Finally, I dont consider myself the top teamplayer of all time. However, I do think that, at my top, I was very good and playing with other people (pr40+ games), and would say more like a top 15 (not including some of current fake elos).

If you ask me, its really hard point out one or two top players. An easy thing to say is that this X224231 guy was good, but nothing OP imo. He was just laming iro properly and able to raid well with lots of uhlans all over the place. A top teamplayer consists of more imo. As for Samwise, sure he was very good, but as the teamgames got more figured out, I feel a lot of people at the top were similar. MrCheese idk much about. H20 is ofc op in 1/1, but just plays teamgames more like 1/1, same for Rapheal probably, which doesnt always work well, as you dont always get the most coherent strats (although 2/2 on a high level has a lot of similarities to 1/1).

So, all in all, taking into account the players over the years, the best teamplayers would probably be these (alphabetic order, as I believe they are more or less interchangeable AT THEIR TOP):
Aklak, Blackstar, Challe, Darwins Russia (lol), Erik, Kumruke, MusketJr, Nagayumi, NaturePhoenix, Prince, Samwise, Shmras, StSt, Veni.

You did alphabetical order hoping nobody would see you sneak your name in the last
JK you are OP

[knusch]

To shine a light on some things and hopefully prevent people from derailing even more than I have unfortunately seen in the last year, here is my take.

I have been around for a long time, since mid 2009 when I first started, until now, with some short and long breaks in between. As such, I have seen and experienced a lot regarding the gameplay/skill (increased), respect towards others (decreased), average bullshit talking (increased) and overall player base (decreased).

In the start I was ofc lower ranked, but I have played a lot with high level teamplayers over time such as the Challe's, Samwise's, Darwin's, Kumruke's, Nagayumi's and Blackstars'. As for the arguments that the older players were more active and good back in the days, that is surely the case as everyone has a certain top period. Both for example Challe and Samwise who came back some times later, were not at the same top level as they were before. Not just because I became better, but because it felt that way seeing their gameplay. That said, I really believe as Raphael has said as well, that people and the gameplay improve over time. I have played over the years, with lots of different people, both with the "west" and with "japs" (Shmras, Nagayumi, Kumruke, StSt, etc are often forgotten), and experienced a lot of different styles and skills. More variations in teamgames and strats are figured out and build orders perfected over time (this also led to some of the "balance/civ banning" issues on the higher level. Though I have to say that this perhaps has gone a little too far in a few specific cases, as there still is room for variations and more precise teamplay, but thats another discussion ). However, as the player base has decreased, the game isnt as competitive now as like 5 years ago, which means as Aiz and GS have said, less hours playing and not as many sparring partners.

As in reply to such non-arguments as yours Rago (how come your opinion changes like 180 degrees whatever direction the wind blows?, you should really put some more thought in your arguments first). If you think that Im not a good teamplayer, you are ofc free to say so. I do want to emphasize that I have had a lot of experience over time, with the "old pros" as well (when I also had around 2750 elo and pr40, which meant more than nowadays) and you havent played in any of those games. Also, right now I am not as good as I was at my top obviously. Players often reach their top at different times, making it harder to compare. For example, Prince and Diarouga have become very good lately, and thus reached their tops later than a Samwise, Musketjr, Me or Blackstar.

Also Stanley and Hazza have an interesting point. Good coordination is very important in teamgames, as I have been doing and advocating, and some people just have a better flow together. That said, on the highest level most thoughts and decisions will be almost identical from both players in the team, meaning they will likely do and expect similar things. Still, as teamgames can imo offer a little more "teamed variety" its of major importance to tune the strategy for the whole team to make it as neat as possible, as then both can adapt their BO's accordingly.

Finally, I dont consider myself the top teamplayer of all time. However, I do think that, at my top, I was very good and playing with other people (pr40+ games), and would say more like a top 15 (not including some of current fake elos).

If you ask me, its really hard point out one or two top players. An easy thing to say is that this X224231 guy was good, but nothing OP imo. He was just laming iro properly and able to raid well with lots of uhlans all over the place. A top teamplayer consists of more imo. As for Samwise, sure he was very good, but as the teamgames got more figured out, I feel a lot of people at the top were similar. MrCheese idk much about. H20 is ofc op in 1/1, but just plays teamgames more like 1/1, same for Rapheal probably, which doesnt always work well, as you dont always get the most coherent strats (although 2/2 on a high level has a lot of similarities to 1/1).

So, all in all, taking into account the players over the years, the best teamplayers would probably be these (alphabetic order, as I believe they are more or less interchangeable AT THEIR TOP):
Aklak, Blackstar, Challe, Darwins Russia (lol), Erik, Kumruke, MusketJr, Nagayumi, NaturePhoenix, Prince, Samwise, Shmras, StSt, Veni.

You did alphabetical order hoping nobody would see you sneak your name in the last
JK you are OP

u always put the punchline at the end.

[Jaeger]

So, all in all, taking into account the players over the years, the best teamplayers would probably be these (alphabetic order, as I believe they are more or less interchangeable AT THEIR TOP):
Aklak, Blackstar, Challe, Darwins Russia (lol), Erik, Kumruke, MusketJr, Nagayumi, NaturePhoenix, Prince, Samwise, Shmras, StSt, Veni.

You did alphabetical order hoping nobody would see you sneak your name in the last
JK you are OP

u always put the punchline at the end.

LOL

[glorious_]

I think it depends on what playstlye you prefer. There were many good team players over the years. I think the best was Aklak. A lot of his builds are still viable and used as of today. StarSky used to play more 1v1 but wasn't that bad at team games as well. And in the early days Ruthless__ was pretty good at team games too.

[r4go]

I think you have to understand what i've said as goodspeed did and maybe read all. What you say about me Is no sense and Just a way to Attack me becouse maybe you don't like what i've said about you. I have always said old meta> new metA. you dream the Wind you are speaking about veni. Thoughts are also in my opinion. If you read it and don't get all like a personal Attack nan

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

I think it depends on what playstlye you prefer. There were many good team players over the years. I think the best was Aklak. A lot of his builds are still viable and used as of today. StarSky used to play more 1v1 but wasn't that bad at team games as well. And in the early days Ruthless__ was pretty good at team games too.

no idea who Ruthless is, but being top when the game comes out isnt same as being top for a longer period, consistently. Starsky was very good, though i think more 1/1 top than team top. Aklak was very good too, though idk about best. His Brit and German were really nice, but dont remember many other civs. Idk what build you refer to. I think i know this ' rush bo" some people refer to as his BO. Idk though, if you look back over the years it can always be someone's bo.. to me its rather logical that if you want to rush with a lot of units out you age with 500f not the tower as brit. Also if you know that food gathers faster, you ship 700g first. Furthermore, I have taken this one or two steps further by shipping 700f after 700g and then 600g again. Does that make it my bo? idk.. just logical card order, dont consider it that specific of a strat per se.

Rago, I need too much time to even figure out what your post actually might mean... If you dont like me as i have said before, its np, just keep valid arguments and dont present your opinion as facts.

[Dolan]

Veni, Aklak was doing some pike renegados rushes on GP.

He was sieging / protecting the ranged inf with the pikes and using renegados to shoot all infantry. It sounds crazy but he was able to make it work very fast in teams. Some of his non-standard builds were some of the weirdest things I've seen in AOE3.

Also those raids. xD
Remember that game on Silk Road when he killed everyone with raids, until they had like a vew vills left? After that game, everyone started splitting Germans in teams.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

Dolan, Aklak had good raiding yes. Though uhlans are too good vs vills ive always said that. I dont remember that game you talk about, what i do know is that a lot of people these days lack the apm and/or ability (keep some units behind) to deal with raids in teamgames, and then complain too much (this is about what GS/Aiz have also said earlier).
Idk the renegado pike strat, though it sounds like that will not work in high level games ^^

[Diarouga]

I agree with veni, as a 1v1 player I have big problems with raids because I'm used enough.

[WickedCossack]

I just get really annoyed

Looks like Aiz malfunctioned.

[Dolan]

Dolan, Aklak had good raiding yes. Though uhlans are too good vs vills ive always said that. I dont remember that game you talk about, what i do know is that a lot of people these days lack the apm and/or ability (keep some units behind) to deal with raids in teamgames, and then complain too much (this is about what GS/Aiz have also said earlier).
Idk the renegado pike strat, though it sounds like that will not work in high level games ^^

Both games were on your stream, lmao. Anyway, I CBA to search them.