The official fixed crate topic

[drsingh]

@Goodspeed

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100wood crate sounds good. Will be easier to balance from there I think.

Also - getting early tp or not
Vs uhlan nerf. Which of these is a bigger change for Germany from re.

Edit -
Like @britishmusketeer

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said
Removing early tp from France, Germany etc will allow them to balanced for both tp and non tp maps.
The whole issue behind randomly getting 100w crate, and also the difference in tp and non tp maps is that tp are too strong for ff and semi ff builds, and have more effect on a civ power lvl than they should.

What if you make the fixed crate 100 food instead?
Make the skilled player work to get a 90 wood treasure fast to get tp start.
Civ tier will remain same between tp and non tp maps.

[Diarouga]

I honestly think I'd remove the early TP for France/Germany and then give Japan and india a wood start, iro whatever makes them with wood but without tp (so only 100w?) and then I'd love to see all other civs have random crates still.

I would be fine with that, but the issue is that extra random food crate, because then the opponent's civ would sometimes have +100f, which is of course not fair.

Yeah I know, why can't it even be fixed like I suggested? Who said that? It just makes me so sad if it's true :(

I think GoodSpeed said that, else it would be good.

[Garja]

Ok, think about japs vs dutch with skirm pike pressure, the difference between the skirms getting to your base when you're building a rax or when your yumis are about to pop out.
Or as france/germany having a shipment or not vs a timing push from brits or russia for example.
Imo these MUs are not that bad balanced, but the spot you're gonna be in, in each game, is highly volatile depending on the crate start.

The Dutch example is irrelevant, that's not even a good way to play the MU. Even if you substitute it with a bow pike rush it still doesnt work as an argument. It's fine to have variance in timings etc. depending on how well your age1 has been (including starting crates). It's part of the game.
In general, it is fine that MUs have a range of win rate which depends on starting conditions, map, treasures, etc. That's the core of AOE3. You're not going to have 50-50 MUs anyway, and that's not even desirable honestly. Not in the way you seem to intend the game anyway, because that would mean that the two civs are identical.

[macacoalbino]

The Dutch example is irrelevant, that's not even a good way to play the MU. Even if you substitute it with a bow pike rush it still doesnt work as an argument. It's fine to have variance in timings etc. depending on how well your age1 has been (including starting crates). It's part of the game.
In general, it is fine that MUs have a range of win rate which depends on starting conditions, map, treasures, etc. That's the core of AOE3.

Well the thing is that sometimes this win rate change from a balanced MU to a one sided MU in some cases. You know it does, right?
And don't get me wrong, I don't really mind random crates, I understand that they add depth to the game - specially in "ladder" play.
But if you really value competitiveness in tourneys you don't want to be behind because of a purely luck factor. You got only a few games to play in this scenario, which means that the sample won't be big enough to dissolve the luck factor over time.

You're not going to have 50-50 MUs anyway, and that's not even desirable honestly. Not in the way you seem to intend the game anyway, because that would mean that the two civs are identical.

Yeah I agree with you here, it's what I said in my first post in this thread actually.

[Garja]

Well I think you are a bit off or directly being brainwashed by someone when it comes to the one sided MU thing. Literally no MU becomes one sided depending upon the crate spawn. And that's because the crate is the same for both civs. The any exceptions I might think off come with China due to its fixed vs random crate.

[momuuu]

Its good to focus on the one sided thing and ignore completely or as much as possible how much influence crate starts have.

[Dsy]

Its totally obvious that fixing crates lead to a more balanced game. But the bigger question how you change them.
That could lead to much more heat. Japan player want to start 300w. German/france players wants to start 200w etc.
But is it good if you allow a civ like german to start always with a tp? I dont think so.

[Atomiswave]

Its totally obvious that fixing crates lead to a more balanced game. But the bigger question how you change them.
That could lead to much more heat. Japan player want to start 300w. German/france players wants to start 200w etc.
But is it good if you allow a civ like german to start always with a tp? I dont think so.

Goodspeed's idea is to replace random crate with wood crate, which may lead to issues, cause difference between 200 or 300w start is huge for most civs. Other way around is replacing random crate with food crate for some civs which is practically a nerf comapred to wood crate. I think implementing this change properly will be harder than anticipated.

[Garja]

Its good to focus on the one sided thing and ignore completely or as much as possible how much influence crate starts have.

Point is MU win rates vary upon a number of factors, including player perception.
The influence of the extra crate and other random factors on fun and game longevity is a more general concept that must be safeguarded indipendently from the current interciv balance. Interciv balance is completely fixable (to a satisfatory degree) with other changes.

Honestly "balance" intended with this meaning, is the easiest thing to achieve since it is merely a matter of tweaking numbers. The real challenge in balancing the game is keeping the interesting factors intact while closing up the win rate ranges a bit among civs.
I don't think fixed crates is of any help in doing this.

[momuuu]

I think theres an obvious benefit for india, japan, iro and possibly france and germany.

[Garja]

India would benefit more from their missing 100f base crate. That is if you think India is weak.
Does Japan really need 300w every time? Don't think so.
Iro only need another crate back.
French and Germany are totally Fine with w/e crate as long as it is the same for the opponent civ.

[Dsy]

Some1 has the full original start list?
I know france starts 300f + 100w + random
china has fixed crates with 200f 300w

Random can be:
Food + Nothing
Food + Gold
Food + Wood
Gold + Nothing
Gold + Food
Gold + Wood
Wood + Nothing
Wood + Food
Wood + Gold

So you will have lot of work to fix all civs i guess... lol

[WickedCossack]

Some1 has the full original start list?
I know france starts 300f + 100w + random
china has fixed crates with 200f 300w

Random can be:
Food + Nothing
Food + Gold
Food + Wood
Gold + Nothing
Gold + Food
Gold + Wood
Wood + Nothing
Wood + Food
Wood + Gold

So you will have lot of work to fix all civs i guess... lol

Nah, there's 2 random crates. The first is Food/Wood/Coin. The second is Food/Nothing.

So Food + Food is an option for example.

[Dsy]

Where is the file i can check it? lol

[Goodspeed]

It's
f
w
g
w + f
g + f

f + f is not an option

[britishmusketeer]

Some1 has the full original start list?
I know france starts 300f + 100w + random
china has fixed crates with 200f 300w

Random can be:
Food + Nothing
Food + Gold
Food + Wood
Gold + Nothing
Gold + Food
Gold + Wood
Wood + Nothing
Wood + Food
Wood + Gold

So you will have lot of work to fix all civs i guess... lol

lol there are 5 crate starts not 9, you just repeated 4 of them in reverse order.

[deleted_user0]

Not all civs have that 2nd random crate though, china doesnt, right?

[WickedCossack]

Fucking crates.

[Goodspeed]

Not all civs have that 2nd random crate though, china doesnt, right?

China always gets 300w 200f. So yeah you don't want to be playing China against a w+f start.

[Atomiswave]

Not all civs have that 2nd random crate though, china doesnt, right?

Yes China has fixed crates...

[WickedCossack]

You could argue though that china always get the food + wood start, so it's only fair the enemy does too.

[Atomiswave]

My concern is that already unstable tp meta will blow out of proportions if almost every civ get additional wood crate. It has to be food or coin for some...

[Atomiswave]

You could argue though that china always get the food + wood start, so it's only fair the enemy does too.

Its more of an argument to try out this change. Heck, if original devs went with this compromise in China's example, ep team has all the right to go with full or partial fixed crate system.

[Goodspeed]

You could argue though that china always get the food + wood start, so it's only fair the enemy does too.

It doesn't matter which way you look at it, the problem is the difference between a gold start and a wood + food start since China starts with the same crates either way

[WickedCossack]

My concern is that already unstable tp meta will blow out of proportions if almost every civ get one more wood crate. It has to be food for some...

Well I think civs like Germany and French would get a coin or food start as Diarouga said on his first post.