Meta Discussion: Russia

[_H2O]

I think we are lacking a bit in the aoe3 related threads lately and had and idea I wanted to try. The idea of this thread is not to play the victim, or to discuss balance changes, or to discuss whether its fair or not. The first topic I wanted to discuss was why Russia is way strong this tournament than it was last tournament. I personally dont think that the cheaper villagers did much of anything to cause this.

I think instead that people did the following:

1. Refined build orders
2. Stopped feeding their first 10 musk and 5 cossack
3. Started making cossack more and valuing boyars more.

I am interested in seeing if anyone who has found more success with Russia this patch wanted to comment or discuss the ways in which the meta has evolved for Russia. I am curious to see along those 3 comments what people specifically are doing better than before, or if there are other views on why Russia feels much stronger now that would also be interesting to discuss.

[sirmusket]

Hey,
In my opinion, the 15f change didn't actually do much as you mentioned, I 1) Think that Russia was slightly underrated on the RE patch, and that Russia was just viewed badly because they weren't played smart as you said, people began mixing cossack earlier, which is actually a pretty amazing unit for its cost, I myself use my 10 musk 5 coss more to poke hunts and pressure and try not to get caught by 5 huss/MM, as you said I think that people have just started using Russia in a better way, and I highly doubt that they have changed that much at all because of 15f cheaper vills. Also when I used to play Russia on the RE patch I didn't really mix cossack after 5/4 cossack and relied on musk/strelet which is pretty bad, instead now i send 700w/700 f or c and spamm cossack from 2 stables and I found that to be very effective, overall I just think that players are playing Russia smarter and actually releasing that Boyars is a pretty insane card and even more so when combined with the cossacks cost efficiency.

[forgrin]

I've been playing India vs Russia alot lately and finding 5coss/700w/4coss eco very hard to deal with. People keep saying this MU is easy, but tbh I only think it's easy when they try to break you rather than just contain and outmass with 2 stable Cossack. Whenever a Russia player goes 5 Coss/4 Coss or 5 Coss/strel I'm much happier as India because I can eat those with MM, but if Russ takes the map and forces you to come out then Cossack can very easily overwhelm you if your micro isn't perfect.

[Hazza54321]

Whilst i agree the russian meta has been refined and that people are smarter with their initial units. I still feel 15f saved per batch is pretty significant. Previously on re you had to cut vills in order to keep up in mass sometimes. Also on 500f starts you can have alot of idle time. Cheaper vill batches and training your initial batch of vills faster allows sometimes for a 10sec faster age up. And having 5 coss in ur opponents base that much earlier is a big deal might be one or 2 less hussars in their initial batch

[Jaeger]

I think we are lacking a bit in the aoe3 related threads lately and had and idea I wanted to try. The idea of this thread is not to play the victim, or to discuss balance changes, or to discuss whether its fair or not. The first topic I wanted to discuss was why Russia is way strong this tournament than it was last tournament. I personally dont think that the cheaper villagers did much of anything to cause this.

I think instead that people did the following:

1. Refined build orders
2. Stopped feeding their first 10 musk and 5 cossack
3. Started making cossack more and valuing boyars more.

I am interested in seeing if anyone who has found more success with Russia this patch wanted to comment or discuss the ways in which the meta has evolved for Russia. I am curious to see along those 3 comments what people specifically are doing better than before, or if there are other views on why Russia feels much stronger now that would also be interesting to discuss.

I am not trying to be offensive, but I am genuinely curious as to how you, as a top player, didn't see this potential in Russia? Why didn't you ever think "Wow if that guy didn't feed his first 10 musk and just made more cossacks he could give me a lot harder time"?

[Mitoe]

Cheaper vill batches and training your initial batch of vills faster allows sometimes for a 10sec faster age up.

Except you still can't queue your first set of vills any faster than before. If anything the 45f you save in age 1 saves you MAYBE 2 or 3 seconds, at best.

To be fair though, being in the base a few seconds earlier definitely can mean 1 less hussar, but since you're not going to be suiciding your first 10-15 units into my base anymore anyway it's not that big a deal really.

[farran34]

The nerf on france, germany, and goons also helped a lot.

[lordraphael]

the 45 food is small but significant. I mostly see players talkimg about it being insignifcant who dont play russia. However if youve played a a bit with them you notice how much of a different it can make. 45 food allows you to age like 4 seconds faster if you then get a food treasure you can pretty much age up idleless and that snowballs hard.
Youre 4 seconds or more earlier in his base you can deny mining earlier which results in less initial units which in turn results in more poking potential with youre first 10 musk 5 cossack, in the end it matters a lot more than those 4 seconds you gain directly from cheaper vills.
With no other civ I try as hard to get a perfect age up simply because it matters so much. Also no other civ benefits more from food trasures than russia does.

But thats only halve of the story Civs that used to win the mu quite handily have been nerfed in exactly that way that makes them a lot weaker vs early agression ( fre, ger ).
Both things combined make russia stronger than they used to be.
Also people have figured out again that russia is a rush civ you cant really play eco russia without at least trying to inflict damage upon your opponent.
Boyars and cossacks have always been the most important stuff for anyone that knows russia a bit.

Also its easy to say that people stopped feeding the first units to their opponent. Before this patch iteration russia was in a vicious cicle most of the time.
They needed to do some sort of early damage but were usually to slow to achieve just that which often led to overextnesions from russias side. Making people believe that rushing was no longer an option.
Then people tried to do timing stuff or eco builds but they were even worse. So they kept on suiciding units to get a lucky catch. Now you dont have to do that anymore, youll usually be able to inflict enough damage to keep up with the other civ. Sure sometimes you wont be very succesful but it will never be a complete waste.

Long story short : age 1 food discount in combination with a nerf to fre and ger made russia strong. But theyre not OP. You just need to be more precise when playing against it, that means having builds prepared ( like kaiser vs mongo, that was a really nice example of how a well prepared build just wins vs russia, unfortunately he suicided all his units in a choke point but he would have won otherwise), I think there are plenty of builds to counter russia play with pretty much every civ.

[gibson]

I find it ironical that the people who keep claiming that this is such a massive buff to Russia are the same people who ignore a 40f treasure guarded by 1 coyote. If saving that 45 food and aging 4 seconds faster is such a big deal, surely its worth it spend 10 secs with your explorer getting that treasure?

[lesllamas]

While I have no opinion on Russia in EP because I don't play the civ much at all, I think it's worth mentioning that relative matchups and civ strength is very much affected by changes to other civs, and to maps.

In a tournament setting, for example, consider russia vs. brits as a matchup.

Changes to civs that aren't russia or brits can change how this shakes out in a competitive set. As civ balance changes as a whole, some picks become safer, some more risky. Nerfing a civ that used to require Russia to play exactly one way in order to be competitive can open up new options and practical builds for Russia players.

For the sake of argument, consider this statement to be correct (I'm not saying that it is necessarily, but it's a thought experiment more than a practical appraisal): Before it was nerfed, Germany required Russia to play ultra aggressive age 2 in order to have a chance. Nerfing Germany perhaps gives Russia players more practice with different approaches, as more greedy builds might be optimal. Hence, Russia players spend much more of their time playing a different style, which perhaps happens to counter brits more effectively than people would have thought prior.

[fei123456]

It's the 255f vill batch which makes their early bo more smooth. Russia usually has only 600f or even less after the 3rd vill batch, and 45f can make them age up before 4:30 in every single game now. And they can train units and vills at the same time in early colonial. Russia is like port 2.0: port has better map control and dedence, while russia has stronger early pressure, and better late colonial.

Let's compare the 3 similar civs: india port russia
Early pressure: russia＞india＞port (or india＞russia? I'm not sure)
late colonial: india＞russia＞port
Aging up: port＞russia＞india (Not sure, india fortress age is better than russia, bt they dont have fast age up)
Boom: port＞russia＞india

So what can we know from these compares? I don't know LOL. But you clever guys will get something, i'm sure.

[fei123456]

Imo russia is defined as another india. But nowadays russia has a more scary early timing, while still has good late colonial: both eco and units. India can't rush early while boom at the same time.
So, make their vills train slower?

However i dont think ep russia already breaks the balance. Acoording to tournament games, india still has some advantage upon russia.

[bugattivitesse]

Although right now i am playing on Vanilla (gave my TAD account to my brother) i think Russia has gotten better. I think for me this has been new strategies and refining old ones. I remember i could trash any civ with Russia on the Master Seargent tier, but after that, players got better and Russia couldnt win. Now i have beaten a lot of people with slightly changed Russia strategies, although on unrated.

[yurashic]

Russia is still a bad civ. Ok, Russia beats Aztec now, does a bit better against France, Germany and Ottomans, but there is still no chance against Portugal, Spain and India. You just dont win games with these terrible units. You have to outmass your opponent really hard to get a cost effective trade, otherwise you are facerolled by both melee compositions and kiting compositions. Separate infantry training would solve the problem I think, even with 270 food villager batches.

[lesllamas]

Having no chance against three civs qualifies as being a bad civ? Again, I haven't the slightest inkling of Russia's state of balance, but your statement seems to imply a less than holistic view of good/bad.

[deleted_user0]

Imo russia was played on maps that suited them better into mus that favored them more. I've always said before the patch that russia probably didnt need any changing. The thing with russia is that on nilla and re it was considered weak mostly because it lost to the top civs. It was the same on the previous ep, but on the current ep, all the civs that traditionally beat russia have fallen off for various reasons. Irois no longer up to the task, neither is france, spain had already fallen off since nilla, though ep brought them closer again, i think they probably still have what it takes if they figure the mu out again. Germany can still win i think, its mostly a confidence issue, but the mu has definitely become more even. Otto has been affected by the maps mostly, but should still be able to win despite the -1 mameluke. This leaves really only india and aztecs as the unchanged mus, and i think russia was only marginally worse in those mus. Bad russia players would 5 4 13, but this sux in most mus, the better russia players had refined bo's and the food buff for vills does smoothen these, even if only slightly. Then, i think alof of people faced russia unprepared, not really knowing how to deal with the civ. I think russia is very good in some mus, and theyre a very versatile civ actually, i hope people will finally start using that potential.

[tedere12]

Ive been thinking that russia can come in a bit faster to do some damage with the musketeer/cossak army and then ship 700wood 700 gold and age behind it to ship 20 strelets and 2 falcs which are nice shipments. Maybe doing this thing is re would be slow but it might be easier now with less food cost. Maybe this is how russia can match the high tech unit of the opponent, by aging up and not staying age 2 and throwing units at them

[britishmusketeer]

I have no idea why people think that 255 vill batches is not a big deal. It is worth half a vill from the start of the game. If you consider how game-breaking a vill treasure is, surely having an extra 0.5 vills every game is a big deal.

[deleted_user0]

it doesnt work that way, they dont have half a vil extra... they dont have their vils fasters, they dont have more vils, they just have to gather 45f less to get 800f. It's not a huge deal, though the it smoothens their bo's which were awkward at times in how to balance res. It's basically like picking up 45f tres every game without losing scouting time...

[Hazza54321]

play a game on re with russia then ep, then tell me how significant it feels

[deleted_user0]

u talking to me?

[spadel]

As Rapha has already pointed out the small buff in age up time has an effect but also I have seen very poor adjustments of other euro civs from how they are played in the current meta. Apart from the tournament games I have seen many obs games were for example french went for early TP + steel traps and only got 3 hus out in the first batch... obviously this is gg. Russia has a nice balance between early aggression and establishing a good eco. But they need to send 700w at some point, which can and should be abused. So either you gotta invest into a big early mass or you gotta take the chance and age to fortress. Maybe the latter requires to skip 700w, otherwise you miss the small gap. But, looking at french for example, taking 2 tps, researching steel trap, sending 4cdb, 700w, 700c after is bad in my opinion against how russia is currently played and has been played before.

So actually I dont think russia's meta has changed much, but the the shift in other civ's metas have made them more effective.
That doesn't mean russia is OP or something.. it will just take some time until player's will adapt to it.

[britishmusketeer]

it doesnt work that way, they dont have half a vil extra... they dont have their vils fasters, they dont have more vils, they just have to gather 45f less to get 800f. It's not a huge deal, though the it smoothens their bo's which were awkward at times in how to balance res. It's basically like picking up 45f tres every game without losing scouting time...

Why doesn't it work that way? I don't see why you would compare it to a 45f tres since the bonus continues in age 2. Whilst you are producing vills you need 0.5 vills less on food to keep up constant vill production so surely you can value it at half a vill?

[deleted_user0]

Ye that's definitely a good point. The more greedy meta means people kinda aren't used to playing vs agressive civs and don't cut the corners it takes to beat agression. The otto vs spain game of ryan vs rapha showed this well imo, ryan made 1 extra vill, while if he had been acquainted with the mu, he would know that you can't do that vs agressive otto and the 20 seconds matter alot, even though he had taken enough tres to be over 1200f when the 17th villager came out.

[Hazza54321]

u talking to me?

everyone who doesnt play russia and thinks the change is insignificant yeah