Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by zoom »

Is this suggestion directed towards EP? If so; wrong forum, please move thread. Also, you're wasting your time, since the decision has been made to change only what is considered essential to balance. First convince the EP to change its philosophy.

Other than that, interesting idea.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

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Just go play pingpong zoom.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by oxaloacetate »

zoom wrote:Is this suggestion directed towards EP? If so; wrong forum, please move thread. Also, you're wasting your time, since the decision has been made to change only what is considered essential to balance. First convince the EP to change its philosophy.

Other than that, interesting idea.


And you guys still wonder why most of the community does not take part in the EP? haha djeezus
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by evilcheadar »

Yea I think towers are underrated. They are very expensive for what they do but do have some less quantitative benefits. For example, depending on where the tower is set up, one can get a really good surround with a unit shipment pop from that tower on an enemy unit mass. Towers can also help you secure more resources that are farther away from your base. But mainly consider my first point, where you get more unit positioning options than just shipping in units to the TC. So many fights can be pushed in your favor with great positioning!
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by Akechi_Mitsuhide »

I actually think that games in which a rush is taking place can be very interesting too. As an example, I would just point at the game between Garja and Challe, an Otto mirror which is, to my mind, really nice to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ9LTxxLdOg
Of course long, more economic games are interesting too, but I want to say that they are not objectively better. It depends on what one wants to see.

Concerning the possible change of Age-Up politicians I think that one shouldn't drastically neglect doing so. Shipments have been changed too and those age-up rewards are somewhat similar to shipments.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by zoom »

oxaloacetate wrote:
zoom wrote:Is this suggestion directed towards EP? If so; wrong forum, please move thread. Also, you're wasting your time, since the decision has been made to change only what is considered essential to balance. First convince the EP to change its philosophy.

Other than that, interesting idea.


And you guys still wonder why most of the community does not take part in the EP? haha djeezus
I believe you misunderstand, then. As has been made clear on many previous occasions, the decision was made to change – generally – as little as possible in order to achieve a satisfactory level of balance; between civilizations in particular. Whether or whether not you and I agree with that decision, asking for relatively insignificant changes like this, without asking for a change in said decision is a waste of time. I am trying to help people not waste their time.

I hope I can be better understood now.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by spanky4ever »

Tbo I like both long games and rush. Having mostly long games with almost only European civs, would make this game so much more boring. Just fix the natives (Iro and Sioux) in next patch, and I will be very satisfied!
Btw - almost only European civs playing - wait! thats pretty much how it is at present :idea: :cry:
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by tedere12 »

2 outpost is 500 wood so it is better than 400 wood. Would be nice to send if you did some defensive ff
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by pecelot »

__Uhlan__ wrote:New politician buffs woulf be extremely interesting and fun to mess around with if certain ones were buffed, the only downfall of this is you can completely change the meta, if you buff 2 vills to 3 vills that may become the brit standard instead of a outpost wagon & 200c. Which at a competive level messes with the meta and you sort of just open a can of worms you might not want to get involved with. Certainly I'm not even sure 3 vills would be better then 500f or the tower and 200c.

I think that would be the point of the change, to make more politicians viable :!:

IAmSoldieR wrote:The argument against changing polis is simple -- and strong. It changes the game too much. And the stated purpose of the EP is to balance with as little change as possible.
You just can't have huge changes.

Ever heard of little tweaks? Like stated, you don't have to add 20 additional cows to the Naturalist lady, but 3/4 more could easily make it.

JakeyBoyTH wrote:But then if you are ports you can have 2TC and 5/6 outposts up pretty quick. Thats some pretty insane map control.

You always have the opportunity to send TEAM Cheap Outposts in the first age (–30%), and I'm not even kidding :!:

tedere12 wrote:2 outpost is 500 wood so it is better than 400 wood. Would be nice to send if you did some defensive ff

Sure, though you have plenty of other ways to use the wood for better purposes :hmm:
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

pecelot wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:New politician buffs woulf be extremely interesting and fun to mess around with if certain ones were buffed, the only downfall of this is you can completely change the meta, if you buff 2 vills to 3 vills that may become the brit standard instead of a outpost wagon & 200c. Which at a competive level messes with the meta and you sort of just open a can of worms you might not want to get involved with. Certainly I'm not even sure 3 vills would be better then 500f or the tower and 200c.

I think that would be the point of the change, to make more politicians viable :!:

IAmSoldieR wrote:The argument against changing polis is simple -- and strong. It changes the game too much. And the stated purpose of the EP is to balance with as little change as possible.
You just can't have huge changes.

Ever heard of little tweaks? Like stated, you don't have to add 20 additional cows to the Naturalist lady, but 3/4 more could easily make it.

JakeyBoyTH wrote:But then if you are ports you can have 2TC and 5/6 outposts up pretty quick. Thats some pretty insane map control.

You always have the opportunity to send TEAM Cheap Outposts in the first age (–30%), and I'm not even kidding :!:

tedere12 wrote:2 outpost is 500 wood so it is better than 400 wood. Would be nice to send if you did some defensive ff

Sure, though you have plenty of other ways to use the wood for better purposes :hmm:


y u dig up old threads?
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by Dsy »

Man it was million times mentioned:

Make useless cards more useful (not op ofc).
And you mention now make useless politician more viable.
There was mentioned im sure make minor unit tweaks cause there are some completely useless units, make them samwhat viable.

These are pretty simple changes though. Its like playing with number.
In ESOC though noone give a damn to improve gameplay. Just playing the old game again and again. Doesnt matter for them if there are plenty useless things. Their solution: dont use them. Play the meta.
Its annoying but its their solution. We cant do anything about it. They dont listen.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by pecelot »

In my opinion age-up politicians are just like regular shipments, therefore if he balance some out, like adding +1 rod or whatever, I don't see a problem with changing a bit advancement bonuses. I'm all for making unviable features of the game viable, it shouldn't hurt anyone and at the same time diversify people's options. Unfortunately, I'm not in the team! :hehe:
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by Jaeger »

somppukunkku wrote:Which civ ottos are supposed to counter in ep ???

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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

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Post by site »

This thread reminds me of why my favorite games to watch are from players on the PR 26-31 range. These players are good at playing, but are bad enough that they can do things that aren't standard play, but they will catch the opponent off guard and will be able to win off of that. It makes for fun and entertaining games.

Sometimes the very high play can get boring. Like PR 40+ brit or Japan mirrors.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by oats13 »

RE: changing politicians for more variety- good idea go for it.

RE: otto being 'lame, op ,w/e', give me a break- otto has fundamentally the weakest eco in the game, once you scout and know the bo's every one of their strats can be beaten- just not by cookie cutter conventional build orders. Golden rule vs ottomans- a draw equals a win- extrapolate from there.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by pecelot »

The thing is, you cannot always draw vs them, they can damage your economy so that theirs suddenly becomes superior, not to mention a possibility of a fluent TP boom to enhance their production even further. :hmm:

At my level of play I feel like everything can be partially OP if in hands of a much better player. If I'm getting rushed with Rattan Shields by a certain creature called Aizamk, it will naturally look very strong and I will probably be defeated, whereas in reality it's not the best of options, were we to apply regular circumstances. I'm not talking about completely changing the units, just little tweaks in the EP way to buff them, for instance — + 0.5 speed and +10 percentage points of melee resist (0.2 in total) for Halberdiers.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by SoldieR »

@peacelot seems you are not understanding my point... that i was making weeks ago.

If you change the game too much from RE, its just too different to make a comfortable, seamless switch. 3/4 more cows to a, what , 2 or 3 poli?, can make something standard. For something to me meta on RE and just completely different meta on EP just isnt healthy for EP success. It just becomes a different game that no one will be up to meta on.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by pecelot »

No, I meant buffing up the cow politician by giving them 3/4 additional cows perhaps. And I'd still disagree, these would be minor tweaks to make more things viable, of course you'd mix up the „meta" a bit, but not by that much.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by Dsy »

Seems mostly fanatics here. Im sure they pray every day for ensemble studiu to thank a perfectly balanced game. And in the book is: dont change anything!
Something like the original game developers would be gods and dont make any mistakes...:D
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

site wrote:This thread reminds me of why my favorite games to watch are from players on the PR 26-31 range. These players are good at playing, but are bad enough that they can do things that aren't standard play, but they will catch the opponent off guard and will be able to win off of that. It makes for fun and entertaining games.

Sometimes the very high play can get boring. Like PR 40+ brit or Japan mirrors.


yeah theres no need to be pr35+ or even 17+ for that matter.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by momuuu »

Dsy wrote:Seems mostly fanatics here. Im sure they pray every day for ensemble studiu to thank a perfectly balanced game. And in the book is: dont change anything!
Something like the original game developers would be gods and dont make any mistakes...:D

I think youre missing the point of ep entirely.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by lesllamas »

IAmSoldieR wrote:@peacelot seems you are not understanding my point... that i was making weeks ago.

If you change the game too much from RE, its just too different to make a comfortable, seamless switch. 3/4 more cows to a, what , 2 or 3 poli?, can make something standard. For something to me meta on RE and just completely different meta on EP just isnt healthy for EP success. It just becomes a different game that no one will be up to meta on.


How is making an age up politician have +3 cows any more meta changing than nerfing bow riders to the point where they are no longer an entirely centralizing aspect of the civilization. Or changing wall hp so that certain turtle strats become close to unviable. Or Port changes that greatly improve certain strats with greater streamlining (80f vills) and nerf the Genitours gimmick that people rush for on RE.

Or changing the entire fucking standard map pool and quicksearch map pool lmfao.

Your argument simply has no leg to stand on. You cannot feasibly argue that adding a few cows to the age 2 politician will have a more meta changing result than pretty much any of the changes the EP already makes.

I would accept your argument if the EP didn't already greatly change how the game is played from RE. Or if the proposed change were actually something that would change the meta lmfao
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by SoldieR »

Okay. So this eventually will go into the discussion of balancing for top level play or mid level or w/e. EP is for top level balance for tournaments. Let's establish that fact.

EP changing 20 range goons and bowriders are fixes (as in things that were broken aspects of gameplay). I dont even consider those balance changes because 1) They (the broken) dont work at top level for the most part. 2) They are bad game design.

Same logic applies to fixing and making better maps. Uneven hunts are mistakes.

Making a 5+ cow poli is meta changing from RE.

All of this revolves around the fact that RE patch is NOT going to change. We have to try to make a seamless transition to EP so everyone can still play the way they usually do, with small balance changes and fixes.
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Re: Advancing to the Colonial Age with a '2 Outpost Wagon' politician

Post by pecelot »

I don't think the aforementioned „broken" things are irrelevant in the first place. If you look at, let's say, H2O vs BSOP Sioux mirror, you'll rather see a pure bow rider spam.
According to your way of thinking, some changes are good because they are „justified", some are not. Still, you wouldn't like to see virtually any changes at all, so I don't think I get what you mean here :hmm:
Underpowered politicians can easily be considered broken as well, or the opposite: the OP ones, like the Exiled Prince or the Quartermaster.

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