Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
This post is being written as ESO is down and I have nothing to do with AOE3 on my mind. There are a lot of reasons why Ashigaru musketeers might be overpowered in a historical sense. I'm no expert in Japanese military history, but it's hard to believe frankly that the musketeers they fielded where ever so good. But the thing I really want to criticize in particular is how the ashi outspeed all other muskets. WTF is the reason for this? I don't think I have to say how annoying it is when some arrogant japs player thinks he can just charge into your base with 50 musks confident you wont catch him, or when he actually raids with these guys. And frankly its bS that this is even possible! I mean think about it: if there is a race of human beings with short legs it is the Japanese. And I can't remember ever hearing of a Japanese Hussain Boldt. I might be being a douche, but even consider the diet those peasants grew up with to make them even smaller, and the rations they were fed were probably crap as well. Someone explain to me how Ashi can logically be so fast. Not saying that a whole lot of logic went into TAD but come on!
disclaimer: I have spent time in Japan and have great respect for Japanese people/culture so don't call me a racist, Japanese people genetically being short with short legs is just the facts of this universe.
disclaimer: I have spent time in Japan and have great respect for Japanese people/culture so don't call me a racist, Japanese people genetically being short with short legs is just the facts of this universe.
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- Ninja
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Untill bolt, most sprinting champions were actually quite short. I dont have more to say on the topic because ye, i dont think there is a historical basis for the stats of most units.
Horse archers armed with composite bows for example could hit targets at 250 meters, thats alot more than any dragoon could hope for in their wildest dreams. Horse archers and all other cavalry, could shoot/fight while moving too, which is what made them so valuable.
Horse archers armed with composite bows for example could hit targets at 250 meters, thats alot more than any dragoon could hope for in their wildest dreams. Horse archers and all other cavalry, could shoot/fight while moving too, which is what made them so valuable.
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Not all Japanese people were "short and fat" that is the poor peasant class, many of whom suffeedr from a poor diet. However, provided they were not in abject poverty, the children of these farmers would often be reasonably fit from working in fields and using equipment all their lives. City dwellers (again, excluding the impoverished) had access to a a large variety of foods. And of course the nobility was very healthy, and most of their healthy children went into the local daimyo's army.
So with the stereotypes out of the way, I will give you my interpretation/rationalization. European soldiers in the early days were weighed down by their equipment - they have to carry a matchlock (which is so heavy that it had to be fired with a stand), allow with bullets, powder, wicks (the burning fuse on a matchlock), supplies, and possibly armor. Japan, being less wealthy, had armies that had less supplies, making them more mobile.
Japan never had its theoretical colonial confrontation with a major power so it is impossible predict the outcome. But it is probably fair to assume that the mobile Shogunate forces would have been able to out-manuever large units of European arquebusiers.
So with the stereotypes out of the way, I will give you my interpretation/rationalization. European soldiers in the early days were weighed down by their equipment - they have to carry a matchlock (which is so heavy that it had to be fired with a stand), allow with bullets, powder, wicks (the burning fuse on a matchlock), supplies, and possibly armor. Japan, being less wealthy, had armies that had less supplies, making them more mobile.
Japan never had its theoretical colonial confrontation with a major power so it is impossible predict the outcome. But it is probably fair to assume that the mobile Shogunate forces would have been able to out-manuever large units of European arquebusiers.
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
thanks for the intelligent responses. But if the ashi were more lightly equipped why would they be so good? I don't doubt that the Japanese could have confronted a major power in the 1700-1800s to some degree, although I doubt their best musks could have ever beaten redcoats. Although in this game FU do they?
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
haha its a good point, and one of our best sprinters in high school track was Japanese. I love what you said about horse archers though. If there is one thing I could change about this game it would be horse archers, they should be able to fire while retreating, as that is THE MOST significant trait of horse archers tactically. Cav archers suck in this game and its too bad, and tactically you cant use them the way cav archers were really used. Even Manchu with their OP speed.umeu wrote:Untill bolt, most sprinting champions were actually quite short. I dont have more to say on the topic because ye, i dont think there is a historical basis for the stats of most units.
Horse archers armed with composite bows for example could hit targets at 250 meters, thats alot more than any dragoon could hope for in their wildest dreams. Horse archers and all other cavalry, could shoot/fight while moving too, which is what made them so valuable.
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Ashigaru translates to "lightfoot". I have no absolute reason to why they were called this. My first guess is that if they were called ashigaru because they were light of feet, then it makes sense they were fast and the conversation ends here.
Lightfeeted
adj.
Treading with light and nimble ease.
My second guess is the devs were like, "hey those ashigaru guys are called lightfoot lets just give them some BS amount of speed to give japan unique muskets."
Guess three is something to do with a fish and rice diet and a more active life style. In the sengoku period, the one with fuedal wars and lots of ashi + samurai, people were constantly fighting and walking. This is when ashi were most relevant, and it ends in 1603.
Bushido came to it's height in 1600, when tokugawa seized power. This can contribute to the relative strength of the unit, a warrior mentality can contribute alot to combat strenth.
Honestly, ashigaru weren't really that relevant after 1600, japan was unified and isolated, with no need to fight. This is why samurai arranged flowers, because they were bored out of their minds.
They became relevant again after the first opium war in china, but it was too little to late. (1839-42) They did have access to the best armaments and military manuals, but the american gunboat diplomacy and political corruption was too much for the nation to handle.
Tldr it makes sense for why they were fast but not really as to why they are so damn strong. It is arguable, but not definite. They probably would be thrashed by 1800s redcoats. (Revoluionary war and after)
Lightfeeted
adj.
Treading with light and nimble ease.
My second guess is the devs were like, "hey those ashigaru guys are called lightfoot lets just give them some BS amount of speed to give japan unique muskets."
Guess three is something to do with a fish and rice diet and a more active life style. In the sengoku period, the one with fuedal wars and lots of ashi + samurai, people were constantly fighting and walking. This is when ashi were most relevant, and it ends in 1603.
Bushido came to it's height in 1600, when tokugawa seized power. This can contribute to the relative strength of the unit, a warrior mentality can contribute alot to combat strenth.
Honestly, ashigaru weren't really that relevant after 1600, japan was unified and isolated, with no need to fight. This is why samurai arranged flowers, because they were bored out of their minds.
They became relevant again after the first opium war in china, but it was too little to late. (1839-42) They did have access to the best armaments and military manuals, but the american gunboat diplomacy and political corruption was too much for the nation to handle.
Tldr it makes sense for why they were fast but not really as to why they are so damn strong. It is arguable, but not definite. They probably would be thrashed by 1800s redcoats. (Revoluionary war and after)
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
i'm pretty sure that ashigaru were lightly armed foot soldiers equipped with japan's first gunpowder weapons. they were supposedly not amazing soldiers, it's just the old guns vs sword thing
it's historical inaccuracy that they're a premium unit however it's game design which fits japan quite well.
it's historical inaccuracy that they're a premium unit however it's game design which fits japan quite well.
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
incog wrote:i''m pretty sure that ashigaru were lightly armed foot soldiers equipped with japan''s first gunpowder weapons. they were supposedly not amazing soldiers, it''s just the old guns vs sword thing
it''s historical inaccuracy that they''re a premium unit however it''s game design which fits japan quite well.
. Just played vs japs in a nr40 as Sioux. And I have come to agree with you. Without those fast
Moving musks (and Samurai actually) he would have been a sitting duck behind his walls
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
I'm sorry for being political here, but I'd say it just happens westerns have a bizzare obsession with asian culture, and aoe3 devs thought everything Japs have must be slightly OPer or something along the lines. I don't think devs thought how game-breaking would it mean to give Japs musks with a speed of 4.5
As you guys said, Ashigaru means lightfoot. Which means "ashigarus" are basic/peasant/cannon fodder soldiers - as opposed to samurais, who were more skilled and trained. There were not just ashigaru musketeers, but ashigaru archers, ashigaru lancers, etc.
In theory ashigaru musketeers should be significantly weaker - because they were lightly armed soldiers with Japan's first gunpower weapons (which arrived through Nanban trade with the Portuguese). But for some reason devs though the mystique Nippon musketeers were better trained than those petty western musketeers for the sole fact they are Japanese, even if the ashigaru received no training at all...
It may make some sense that ashigarus could have a slightly superior speed because they were more lightly armed. What does not makes sense is that they are on overall much stronger than normal musks.
You may make them have the same HP and the same speed, or you may make them have more speed but less HP. But ashigarus have both more speed and more HP -.-
Verdict: For the sake of balance and fun, ashigarus should keep their 4.5 speed, but at the very least they should be considerably weaker and somewhat cheaper.
As you guys said, Ashigaru means lightfoot. Which means "ashigarus" are basic/peasant/cannon fodder soldiers - as opposed to samurais, who were more skilled and trained. There were not just ashigaru musketeers, but ashigaru archers, ashigaru lancers, etc.
In theory ashigaru musketeers should be significantly weaker - because they were lightly armed soldiers with Japan's first gunpower weapons (which arrived through Nanban trade with the Portuguese). But for some reason devs though the mystique Nippon musketeers were better trained than those petty western musketeers for the sole fact they are Japanese, even if the ashigaru received no training at all...
It may make some sense that ashigarus could have a slightly superior speed because they were more lightly armed. What does not makes sense is that they are on overall much stronger than normal musks.
You may make them have the same HP and the same speed, or you may make them have more speed but less HP. But ashigarus have both more speed and more HP -.-
Verdict: For the sake of balance and fun, ashigarus should keep their 4.5 speed, but at the very least they should be considerably weaker and somewhat cheaper.
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
no, it's japanese's game design which have their units be more expensive and better than other units
you can't have both premium units (japan) and cheap units (china russia)
you can't have both premium units (japan) and cheap units (china russia)
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
I really, really wish that Jap berry gather rate was 0.8/s. Then all of you can yell at me "JAPS ARE OP"! But it is not the case... ahh, and by the way - did anyone compared the price on DPS for Ashi and lets say Brit musk? I think you should have done it, it would have made the picture more clear.
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
rio222 wrote:I really, really wish that Jap berry gather rate was 0.8/s. Then all of you can yell at me "JAPS ARE OP"! But it is not the case... ahh, and by the way - did anyone compared the price on DPS for Ashi and lets say Brit musk? I think you should have done it, it would have made the picture more clear.
I really don''t see how japs are so op in treaty. Japs are unfair in rush because you basically have to rush the shit out of them to win which makes for a lame game then when you do rush then try have unfair nonsense such as beisteoro and dbl Yumi
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Their units are so OP that they are OP. Mobile FBs, sick musks, sick yumis, great cav, great cannons, decent anti cannon, great mortars, with everything getting a boost from the OP daimyos. Their eco is meh, but they can handle it by getting about twice the cost effectiveness.adderbrain5 wrote:I really dont see how japs are so op in treaty. Japs are unfair in rush because you basically have to rush the shit out of them to win which makes for a lame game then when you do rush then try have unfair nonsense such as beisteoro and dbl Yumirio222 wrote:I really, really wish that Jap berry gather rate was 0.8/s. Then all of you can yell at me "JAPS ARE OP"! But it is not the case... ahh, and by the way - did anyone compared the price on DPS for Ashi and lets say Brit musk? I think you should have done it, it would have made the picture more clear.
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
jerom wrote:Theyre units are so OP that they are OP. Mobile FBs, sick musks, sick yumis, great cav, great cannons, decent anti cannon, great mortars, with everything getting a boost from the OP daimyos. Their eco is meh, but they can handle it by getting about twice the cost effectiveness.?adderbrain5 wrote: I really dont see how japs are so op in treaty. Japs are unfair in rush because you basically have to rush the shit out of them to win which makes for a lame game then when you do rush then try have unfair nonsense such as beisteoro and dbl Yumi
in treaty though all that is so easily countable
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Their eco is really strong actually and they create resources out of thin air, or should I better say they collect the animals shit and burn it to get resources.
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
venox wrote:Their eco is really strong actually and they create resources out of thin air, or should I better say they collect the animals shit and burn it to get resources.
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
"Heavenly" Kamiadderbrain5 wrote:the gods providevenox wrote:Their eco is really strong actually and they create resources out of thin air, or should I better say they collect the animals shit and burn it to get resources.
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Japanese "great canons"?!!! I wasted all this time making flaming arrows? OMG my life its a lie... Where are they, WHERE ARE THEY??? Give me the cheat code for them Jerom!!! Please!!
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
tuck tuck tuck
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Don''t be silly, I''m not asking for all Jap units to be cheap and weak. Yumis and the rest of their units are ok imho.incog wrote:no, it''s japanese''s game design which have their units be more expensive and better than other units
you can''t have both premium units (japan) and cheap units (china russia)
Because, let''s admit it, Jap is OP if you don''t rush them and they are easily one of the OPest civs in team games.
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
well yumi are probably more of a problem than ashi :p
stock ashi (without upgrades) aren't that special, yumi are though and when THEY get upgraded, they're tough bastards
stock ashi (without upgrades) aren't that special, yumi are though and when THEY get upgraded, they're tough bastards
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- Lancer
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
incog wrote:well yumi are probably more of a problem than ashi :p
stock ashi (without upgrades) aren''t that special, yumi are though and when THEY get upgraded, they''re tough bastards
there nothing a few imperial Canon can''t handle :p
Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
rio222 wrote:Japanese "great canons"?!!! I wasted all this time making flaming arrows? OMG my life its a lie... Where are they, WHERE ARE THEY??? Give me the cheat code for them Jerom!!! Please!!
great as in, the cannons they get (or well, flaming arrows) are great.
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Historic Physiological reasons why Ashi are OP
Yeah but at least that way they would have less OP units. At least Yumis make more sense to be OP imho.incog wrote:well yumi are probably more of a problem than ashi :p
stock ashi (without upgrades) aren''t that special, yumi are though and when THEY get upgraded, they''re tough bastards
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