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Mitoe wrote:@gibson I can understand where you're coming from with this, but you have to understand that there's a lot more to Diarouga's ban than simple bad behaviour. This is his second permaban, and it will take time for us to decide he deserves a third chance. Regarding H2O: for the most part he has been more than accommodating in tournament settings, and has never engaged in flaming or similar behaviour on any of ESOC's outlets, be it forum, twitch chat, or youtube. Although his decision to forfeit from the 2v2 tournament was undesirable, he later told me that neither he or Sam felt willing to play the series even before it began, and were having little to no fun during the first two games. Neither of them had really played since their last match and this weekend was a tight squeeze for their schedules, leaving no room for rescheduling either.
And while I know I risk sounding biased here, I think that during the Autumn Tournament it is hard to blame him for being unmotivated to finish the series when they had already spent far more time out of game than they had in game. I believe the series took 130 minutes overall, and only 54 minutes (if I recall correctly) of that time had been spent in game. This is obviously unacceptable not only for a competitive environment, but also for live spectators, casters, and other staff. We are looking into creating rules for some kind of time limit between games in the later stages of our future tournaments as the number of required games grows larger.
Besides, H2O had also been perfectly willing to even jump in on the Skype call on the stream and talk about the series a bit before logging off; during which, he did not display any sort of inappropriate behaviour.
I understand that he might not "have been having fun" in the 2v2 tourney or in the previous tournament, but quite frankly that's not my problem, not is it the problem of the 160 people who were watching the 2v2 tourney, nor is it the problem of the 500 people who were watching the finals of the winter tourney. In a small community like this where tournaments are few and far between, if you commit to playing you've gotta play and you've gotta not half ass it. If they didn't want to play, than they shouldn't have signed up. It's as simple as that. It's especially bad since they were playing in goongoon's stolen spot. Forfeiting in the middle of a series is disrespectful to your opponents, to the people watching, and to the people who organized the tourney. Especially if its for such a pathetic and childish reason as "I wasn't having fun".
Which is an entirely different discussion. Dont think anyone would claim to be happy with the forfeit today but it has nothing to do with diarouga.
Mitoe wrote:@gibson I can understand where you're coming from with this, but you have to understand that there's a lot more to Diarouga's ban than simple bad behaviour. This is his second permaban, and it will take time for us to decide he deserves a third chance. Regarding H2O: for the most part he has been more than accommodating in tournament settings, and has never engaged in flaming or similar behaviour on any of ESOC's outlets, be it forum, twitch chat, or youtube. Although his decision to forfeit from the 2v2 tournament was undesirable, he later told me that neither he or Sam felt willing to play the series even before it began, and were having little to no fun during the first two games. Neither of them had really played since their last match and this weekend was a tight squeeze for their schedules, leaving no room for rescheduling either.
And while I know I risk sounding biased here, I think that during the Autumn Tournament it is hard to blame him for being unmotivated to finish the series when they had already spent far more time out of game than they had in game. I believe the series took 130 minutes overall, and only 54 minutes (if I recall correctly) of that time had been spent in game. This is obviously unacceptable not only for a competitive environment, but also for live spectators, casters, and other staff. We are looking into creating rules for some kind of time limit between games in the later stages of our future tournaments as the number of required games grows larger.
Besides, H2O had also been perfectly willing to even jump in on the Skype call on the stream and talk about the series a bit before logging off; during which, he did not display any sort of inappropriate behaviour.
I understand that he might not "have been having fun" in the 2v2 tourney or in the previous tournament, but quite frankly that's not my problem, not is it the problem of the 160 people who were watching the 2v2 tourney, nor is it the problem of the 500 people who were watching the finals of the winter tourney. In a small community like this where tournaments are few and far between, if you commit to playing you've gotta play and you've gotta not half ass it. If they didn't want to play, than they shouldn't have signed up. It's as simple as that. It's especially bad since they were playing in goongoon's stolen spot. Forfeiting in the middle of a series is disrespectful to your opponents, to the people watching, and to the people who organized the tourney. Especially if its for such a pathetic and childish reason as "I wasn't having fun".
Which is an entirely different discussion. Dont think anyone would claim to be happy with the forfeit today but it has nothing to do with diarouga.
Not directly. Point being that diarouga was disrespectful to the staff and got banned from the tourney and from the forum forever. H20 was disrespectful to the entire community and no one on the staff seems to give shit. I suppose given the fact that he runs the site, there's not much anyone could do.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
Just like you'd think death threats shouldnt lead to bans
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Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
People who quit in the middle of a tournament shouldn't be allowed to participate in the next tournament or two.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
People who quit in the middle of a tournament shouldn't be allowed to participate in the next tournament or two.
A decent rule for upcoming tournaments, but you cannot oppose such a thing after an incident happens without defining it beforehand.
That being said Im sure this incident will decrease the chances of H2O being invited to invitationals in the future.
My final advice would be to trust the moderators in their honest judgement. Exclusion of people isnt a light thing to do. The people that make these decisions dont do so lightly, so you can trust their judgement.
A lot of what diarouga has done is not quite that apparent to many it seems, but he has done enough to deserve this ban of undetermined length, just trust me on that one.
I've been interacting with dia a lot in the past few weeks in the Insight discord and he strikes me as a genuinely nice and helpful guy. I think ESOC staff should see how Insight Fight Night (which rouga heads) goes and go off of that.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
Ironic how in the past you've argued that tournaments are completely about the audience and not really about the players. And I have no idea what you're talking marechal and don't really care either. Fact is if the esoc staff wasn't petty as fuck and more concerned about "punishing" Diarouga than actually having good quality players play, also demonstrated with breezebrothers disqualification(oooooo he called us names, we have to punish him too), than they would allow him to play. You keep on talking about all the "awful things" he's done, I don't care if he's fucked your mum. Not letting him play doesn't unfuck your mum, neither does not letting him play prevent your mum from being fucked again in the future. In fact, in this particular case not allowing him to play increases the chance of your mum being fucked again and allowing him to play decreases the chance. Anyway, you're just blind and incredibly ignorant of human behavior if you believe this community is cliqueish. I can name at least 6 different cliques and I'm sure there's way more than that
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
Ironic how in the past you've argued that tournaments are completely about the audience and not really about the players. And I have no idea what you're talking marechal and don't really care either. Fact is if the esoc staff wasn't petty as fuck and more concerned about "punishing" Diarouga than actually having good quality players play, also demonstrated with breezebrothers disqualification(oooooo he called us names, we have to punish him too), than they would allow him to play. You keep on talking about all the "awful things" he's done, I don't care if he's fucked your mum. Not letting him play doesn't unfuck your mum, neither does not letting him play prevent your mum from being fucked again in the future. In fact, in this particular case not allowing him to play increases the chance of your mum being fucked again and allowing him to play decreases the chance. Anyway, you're just blind and incredibly ignorant of human behavior if you believe this community is cliqueish. I can name at least 6 different cliques and I'm sure there's way more than that
By that logic, any time you ban or penalize someone and they threaten retaliation you should reverse the ban/penalty...
Jerom wrote:Again completely unrelated to this topic.
My final advice would be to trust the moderators in their honest judgement. Exclusion of people isnt a light thing to do. The people that make these decisions dont do so lightly, so you can trust their judgement.
A lot of what diarouga has done is not quite that apparent to many it seems, but he has done enough to deserve this ban of undetermined length, just trust me on that one.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
Ironic how in the past you've argued that tournaments are completely about the audience and not really about the players. And I have no idea what you're talking marechal and don't really care either. Fact is if the esoc staff wasn't petty as fuck and more concerned about "punishing" Diarouga than actually having good quality players play, also demonstrated with breezebrothers disqualification(oooooo he called us names, we have to punish him too), than they would allow him to play. You keep on talking about all the "awful things" he's done, I don't care if he's fucked your mum. Not letting him play doesn't unfuck your mum, neither does not letting him play prevent your mum from being fucked again in the future. In fact, in this particular case not allowing him to play increases the chance of your mum being fucked again and allowing him to play decreases the chance. Anyway, you're just blind and incredibly ignorant of human behavior if you believe this community is cliqueish. I can name at least 6 different cliques and I'm sure there's way more than that
Well the marechal case for you then: forfeits against diarouga after game 1 in a broadcasted game. Still gets an invite to invitational #1. Does that make him part of the clique then?
I understood the breezebrothers decision. Breezebrothers isnt a pretty guy to be around and I can imagine youre done with it after insulting topic #50. I also fully understand the diarouga ban. I dont see how you can argue in this topic if you dont even care about what he has done. What he has done rightfully resulted in a ban, and how he is behaving doesnt give much incentive to lift that ban I think. Its up to him to prove that his ban should be lifted, but I doubt he can do that.
Jerom wrote:What H2O did is not comparable to anything diarouga did. Also I think forfeiting from tournaments is not something that'd lead to bans at all.
No it's really not comparable at all. Diarouga was disrespectful to a handful of people. H2o was disrespectful to hundreds of people. I realize that what diarouga did was worse, so that warrants the question is being incredibly disrespectful to a handful of people worse than being slightly disrespectful to hundreds of people? And I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
You grossly underestimate what diarouga has done and make what h2o did a far bigger deal than it was. You cant force a voluntary player to entertain people. H2Os case can be compared to marechal's case. I invite you to actually take a look at that. Id be impressed if you'd still claim inside clique stuff afterwards.
Ironic how in the past you've argued that tournaments are completely about the audience and not really about the players. And I have no idea what you're talking marechal and don't really care either. Fact is if the esoc staff wasn't petty as fuck and more concerned about "punishing" Diarouga than actually having good quality players play, also demonstrated with breezebrothers disqualification(oooooo he called us names, we have to punish him too), than they would allow him to play. You keep on talking about all the "awful things" he's done, I don't care if he's fucked your mum. Not letting him play doesn't unfuck your mum, neither does not letting him play prevent your mum from being fucked again in the future. In fact, in this particular case not allowing him to play increases the chance of your mum being fucked again and allowing him to play decreases the chance. Anyway, you're just blind and incredibly ignorant of human behavior if you believe this community is cliqueish. I can name at least 6 different cliques and I'm sure there's way more than that
By that logic, any time you ban or penalize someone and they threaten retaliation you should reverse the ban/penalty...
This indeed appears to be exactly what gibson is proposing here in general. Cheating? Smurfing? Harassment? Mother-fucking? Doesn't matter, just let them continue doing it, or it might get even worse! Foolproof plan.
Edit: What I also find amusing is that this completely contradicts gibson's immediate previous post in this same thread about punishing _h2o for forfeiting a game..
gibson wrote: I would argue that forfeiting on the basis of " I'm not having fun" I'n the middle of a series should warrant at the very least consideration of disqualification in a future event, and given his past history should definitely warrant it.
momuuu wrote: ↑theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
Jerom wrote:Also I dont get why im always being called biased.
Let's think for a moment which is more likely - that your confusion about accusations of bias is because you aren't biased, or that you are obviously biased, but something in your brain prevents you from fully "getting" this?
This thread's pretty out of control right now and has a lot of things going on. There's a diarouga thing, an _H2O thing, a breeze-goongoon thing, and a basement-Jerom thing, and while there are elements of productive conversation in all of these things, a lot of it is buried under an extraordinary amount of toxicity from a lot of people, which is disappointing to see. I am closing this thread for now and hoping that everyone uses this time to calm down. Some of these discussions may come back in some form or another at later points in time, but it's evident to me that this is not the place and time for it.
