NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

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NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by greatscythe11 »

Ok guys, here is a recording of a game I’ve played recently. It’s not high level at all. Please excuse the micro, mine’s pretty bad. Just wanted to ask someone whether my ideas are right. Wish an expert would comment. Here are my ideas.
1 .I’ve decided to go for a xbowpike(I’ve once asked Kaiser about it, thank him for the advice).My reasoning is-
a) xbowpike is cheap and quick for defense. Massing is simple if food and wood are sufficient.
b) Sioux don’t have a big force multiplier like urumi, mahout, falcs, cuirs etc. in age 3 to surprise an age 2 army.
c) Sioux eco isn’t that great. So booming and outecoing them is possible in this line of play.
d) Humble xbows do decent vs bowriders and rifleriders.
e) The alternative, i.e. ww+skirm is fraught with danger because the waiting time to reach age 3 can be long vs a raiding specialist like Sioux. Also the combo is coin heavy and may require migration vs Sioux map control.
2. I’ve decided to build an LOS wall. It costs about 100 wood and some APM. My intention was to deny the mobile enemy the element of surprise. (They are like radar stations).The wall can also be joined later on.
3. While fighting with bowpike I’ve found that shooting and pushing the bows forward and towards the ranged units works. The pikes get lured forward anyway so it also keeps the army closer. Also I’ve tried to reinforce pikes early on because casualty rate for melee units is higher.
4. I’ve decided to go for 3 raxes since I’m looking to outeco and outmass. With a large economy, enough outlets to project the eco on the field is important I think. Also reinforcement for offense or defense is stronger.
Attachments
[RE SP] Greatscythe11[GE] vs _AMIRHOSSEIN_[SI] - Great Plains.age3yrec
(504.24 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
Great Plains
Great Plains
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 18 minutes
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by glorious_ »

just rush, tower, rax and pike
card order 2 sw, 3 doppel, 8 bows, 700 w etc.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by tedere12 »

ez german win.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by pecelot »

greatscythe11 wrote:b) Sioux don’t have a big force multiplier like urumi, mahout, falcs, cuirs etc. in age 3 to surprise an age 2 army.

Rifle Riders? Dog Soldiers, even in age 2? :hmm:
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by greatscythe11 »

pecelot wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote:b) Sioux don’t have a big force multiplier like urumi, mahout, falcs, cuirs etc. in age 3 to surprise an age 2 army.

Rifle Riders? Dog Soldiers, even in age 2? :hmm:


Well, My feeling is, Rifle Riders and Dog soldiers are good but they don't have area damage.And generally age 2 army has greater numbers against which area effect works.Dog soldiers and rifle riders will have to kill each unit individually.It is good but still slower than area damage that lets say 5 urumi or 2 falcs can do.Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by pecelot »

It's more about tankiness, too — Dog Soldiers have a lot of HP and completely annihilate infantry, so do Rifle Riders. Xbows aren't really a great answer to that combo... :?
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by tedere12 »

do a ff 3 sw 700w, and build a tower to the 2nd gold mine and ship 9br and 13 jaeger
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by greatscythe11 »

tedere12 wrote:do a ff 3 sw 700w, and build a tower to the 2nd gold mine and ship 9br and 13 jaeger

Well I did try something similar.Stable age up with 8 skirm and 5 WW with 7 skirm followup.However, by that time the idling damage done by the raids becomes too much.The Sioux player gains enough military advantage with raids against basically naked FF.Club rush threat also becomes much bigger.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Pillakillee »

It was a good game by german
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Miqueias »

it doesnt make sence why age up with fast polition just to get 200 w in transition and send 4 villagers first and make few villagers on tc and few army in first batch instead of send 4 axerider to raid and punish german for age up later or age up at same time as german with 400 w guy( 6 to 8 vill in gold rest on food during transition) make 2 stables and army in both stable with complete batch ,, and why age up to fortress and didnt make shirmisher wakina ( sent 1 shipment of them and bad micro against doppelsodner)

glorious_ wrote:just rush, tower, rax and pike
card order 2 sw, 3 doppel, 8 bows, 700 w etc.

sioux can age up early and with good micro only bowrider is enough

this sioux player should use market even not for ups .. i mean 8 villagers in gold in age 2 until end the game rest on food and no market to get gold selling food
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by fei123456 »

sioux will need 7 club/3 bear to hold a xbow/pike rush. or good raiding.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by deleted_user0 »

Nah lol. You can hold almost if not any rush with straight ff. Only jan rush and 10/10 are too fast
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by KINGofOsmane »

ger beats everything
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by pecelot »

KINGofOsmane wrote:3 bear beats everything

FTFY
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by KINGofOsmane »

pecelot wrote:
KINGofOsmane wrote:3 bear beats everything

FTFY

nice try
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Kaiserklein »

@greatscythe11 Hmm, I think you kinda misunderstood what I told you, or then I wasn't clear. I usually don't rush sioux, I timing push them.
You don't want to make pikes, they just suck. You want dops. The problem is, you can't really mass dops early on, and you sometimes need fast anti-cav if Sioux ships 4 cav first (though it's bad). You do want xbows though, as they're your only ranged infantry in colonial, aka the only thing that may beat brs.

So the plan is :
- start with bows + 5 pikes and stay in your base. That way, you're safe, and you ship 3 sw + get steel traps for your eco. You can even try to cut the 5 pikes and make 5 more bows instead, but it's risky if Sioux trains cav (then mm + free uhlans might not be enough to cover your bows).
- from 700w, get another rax up, houses, and xbows. You should be able to get some big batches of bows out.
- from 700g, a huge batch of dops from 2 raxes. They will be your main anti-cav.
- timing push with 8 bows or 3 dops, depending on what you think you will need. 8 bows being a better shipment, you'd rather ship that, but if you need more anti-cav then ofc ship dops.

This should be a good timing to counter a sioux semi ff or colonial play. It probs loses to a naked ff though. Either you scout the ff, and you ff yourself (3 sw 700w most likely) and enjoy, or you don't, and then I guess you should age up from 700g instead and try to harass sioux a bit with your infantry, but that shouldn't work I guess.

P.S: please don't go triple rax
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by glorious_ »

Miqueias wrote:it doesnt make sence why age up with fast polition just to get 200 w in transition and send 4 villagers first and make few villagers on tc and few army in first batch instead of send 4 axerider to raid and punish german for age up later or age up at same time as german with 400 w guy( 6 to 8 vill in gold rest on food during transition) make 2 stables and army in both stable with complete batch ,, and why age up to fortress and didnt make shirmisher wakina ( sent 1 shipment of them and bad micro against doppelsodner)

glorious_ wrote:just rush, tower, rax and pike
card order 2 sw, 3 doppel, 8 bows, 700 w etc.

sioux can age up early and with good micro only bowrider is enough

this sioux player should use market even not for ups .. i mean 8 villagers in gold in age 2 until end the game rest on food and no market to get gold selling food


Yeah maybe but they dont have very useful unit cards, so when he has 5 br you already have 5 pike 8 bows and 2 uhlans, if he sends cetan uhlans clear em up with bows and if he sends axe you have the pike or doppel. You just have to micro a bit with germans. And keep in mind sioux eco is a lot worse than german eco. So the only thing you have to do as german is basically harass him to keep his eco low.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:@greatscythe11 Hmm, I think you kinda misunderstood what I told you, or then I wasn't clear. I usually don't rush sioux, I timing push them.
You don't want to make pikes, they just suck. You want dops. The problem is, you can't really mass dops early on, and you sometimes need fast anti-cav if Sioux ships 4 cav first (though it's bad). You do want xbows though, as they're your only ranged infantry in colonial, aka the only thing that may beat brs.

So the plan is :
- start with bows + 5 pikes and stay in your base. That way, you're safe, and you ship 3 sw + get steel traps for your eco. You can even try to cut the 5 pikes and make 5 more bows instead, but it's risky if Sioux trains cav (then mm + free uhlans might not be enough to cover your bows).
- from 700w, get another rax up, houses, and xbows. You should be able to get some big batches of bows out.
- from 700g, a huge batch of dops from 2 raxes. They will be your main anti-cav.
- timing push with 8 bows or 3 dops, depending on what you think you will need. 8 bows being a better shipment, you'd rather ship that, but if you need more anti-cav then ofc ship dops.

This should be a good timing to counter a sioux semi ff or colonial play. It probs loses to a naked ff though. Either you scout the ff, and you ff yourself (3 sw 700w most likely) and enjoy, or you don't, and then I guess you should age up from 700g instead and try to harass sioux a bit with your infantry, but that shouldn't work I guess.

P.S: please don't go triple rax


this seems to slow to me imo, im sure sioux can hold this. if not on re, then for sure on ep
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Kaiserklein »

On ep it's ofc much different, I was talking about RE. I wouldn't try to timing push into teepees on ep.
How would you hold this on RE?
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Hazza54321 »

this is the only MU u cant z move uhlan in :'(
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:On ep it's ofc much different, I was talking about RE. I wouldn't try to timing push into teepees on ep.
How would you hold this on RE?


Probably same way as on re, straight ff, 3 dogs 9 wakina and make br vs a bow heavy push or 5 rr then 9 wakina and make ar vs a pike heavy push

Im sure you hold the push on either patch, but im not sure if re sioux gets enough eco to deal with the follow up fortess age up
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Kaiserklein »

umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:On ep it's ofc much different, I was talking about RE. I wouldn't try to timing push into teepees on ep.
How would you hold this on RE?


Probably same way as on re, straight ff, 3 dogs 9 wakina and make br vs a bow heavy push or 5 rr then 9 wakina and make ar vs a pike heavy push

Im sure you hold the push on either patch, but im not sure if re sioux gets enough eco to deal with the follow up fortess age up

I mean, I said it should counter colonial play or semi ff, and that it's not what you want to do against a naked ff. Against sioux naked ff you can just naked ff yourself as germany. It's just mind games and scouting. My question was more: how do you hold this as sioux on RE when you don't go for a naked ff?
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by deleted_user0 »

Thing is you cant scout if sioux does ff or colo, the opening is the same. 700c can also mean unit spam. In any case its too late by then

You cant hold it without naked ff, thats why u do t do anything else. There is a cheese that can sometimes work, u ship 10 pistoleros first and then 4 axe and make 4-5 axe, then puah with 9 axe and pistoleros at 6.30
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well you can see if the guy makes no units, by sending your explorer in his base. Not right away, but at 6 min or so you should know. And then you can quickly turn your timing into a semi ff, with only like 5 pikes or 5 pikes 5 bows, and burn his tp down. So yeah it's not as great as a naked ff in that particular situation but I think it does kinda ok.
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Re: NOOB GERMAN MATCHUP -VS SIOUX

Post by fei123456 »

I still think german shouldn't "Tower" rush
Tower do has some use, shipments arrive faster, defending etc. But it's 250w. Still too expensive imo.

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