[RE]French vs Japan 2 games

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United States of America Alohomora
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[RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by Alohomora »

I'm new here:) just lost 2 games vs japan :(
lt. lvl MU, but can someone give some advice thx :)
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[RE SP] Alohomora[FR] vs 112122150251[JP] - Deccan.age3yrec
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Deccan
Deccan
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 28 minutes
[RE SP] Alohomora[FR] vs bluesssssss[JP] - Bayou.age3yrec
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Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by fei123456 »

you don't need so many TCs. instead, when you have a much stronger army, you never try to take use of this. your army just stand outside his base waiting, which is ridiculous.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by Alohomora »

Couprider wrote:you don't need so many TCs. instead, when you have a much stronger army, you never try to take use of this. your army just stand outside his base waiting, which is ridiculous.

would it be better had I attacked from either side?
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by fei123456 »

just keep pressure
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

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Post by pecelot »

Deccan game:
As French vs Japan you want to age up — 2 raxes in colonial are unnecessary. Your BO was good, I'd perhaps have aged with 13 CDBs and got Gang Saw sooner, but that's just my preference. With pure musk you wasn't able to contest his army with yumi. 80 pop space was a bit too much while having no stable. You can consider switching your TP income to coin to advance to Fortress sooner. When you have the trading route upgraded, be sure to rebuild destroyed TPs as soon as possible. I think you could have easily won with that cuir push in the 13th minute. You had very good production, though vs Japan I think you always need cannons, especially when you can afford it. You need to be a bit more decisive, you had a lead for quite some time, but retreated every time Japan army got their reinforcements (even though they were smaller than yours). Around the 18th minute you had about 2.5k coin stacked — that's something you need to work on (Mercantilism? cannons? ;) ). You also gathered from your berries while having almost total map control, take your CDBs to free hunts next time. Despite having almost 2k food later, you struggled to produce CDBs continuously for some time. Then you had 2.5k wood... You picked bad fight, idk if cuirs are the best idea vs pure ashi.

Bayou game:
Start working on those big treasures from the very beginning — you have the Sharpshooter Attack ability, which gives you a big advantage. If you start with a rax, add a stable soon since Japan can train yumis. On a non-TP map I'd perhaps consider starting with pikes more effective. When you have almost 700 coin I'd cancel the 700 coin card for the age-up, since you won't have many more shipments later on. Again, you were passive with your TC drop in early Fortress — I don't think you can be so greedy vs Japan. Goons were also a questionable choice, as your opponent had so cav at all and they generally don't do that well vs ashi & yumi. Oh, and your deck... TEAM Ranged Infantry Attack is a terrible card in such cases, definitely you need 8 & 7 skirms, 3 cuirs, idk about the jaegers, Textile Mill I'd get rid of, too. And again, poor fights, skirms not focusing down ashi, getting rekt by nagi, cuir vs ashi etc. 2k coin stacked in the 20th minute, no arsenal at that point of the game. Eco theory sent when you had 37 CDBs — that's not entirely viable, to say the least...
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by Alohomora »

ahh yeah japan outbooms tc boom so I should spent resource pushing not booming correct?

also do I need culvs to deal with flaming arrows? And how do you counter disciplined ashi + nagi, or japan should be dead by then?
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

Usually vs Japan you're the one put on the clock due to their amazing late-game scaling and all the bonuses they possess. Your 3-TC boom is very costly as you have to spend 1200 wood on infrastructure and additional 240 food every 29 seconds, whereas Japan can send something like 2 times 7 vills and just build shrines forever.

I heard 2 falcs should win vs 2 FAs, but I'm not convinced that's the case since they have more range (it's significant in cannon wars) — therefore a culverin or two is highly recommended, especially when you have some falcs on the field already. Most of the times you'd like to protect your cannons from cavalry and ashis marching into them, so something like skirm + cuir would perhaps be alright, though perhaps halbs could be used here. If you have a better heavy infantry unit up your sleeve, perhaps from a saloon, like Swiss pikes, then that's the way to go!
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by Alohomora »

french just don't seem to have body block units against super muskets...
anyway thanks for the tips!
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

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Post by pecelot »

Haha, you don't have to tell me!

Image

Today I lost a 1-hour-and-37-minute-long game (without treaty!) as France vs Japan for this particular reason xD He just spammed ashis and flaming arrows, I had to balance my skirms, culverins, horse cannons, cuirs and mortars counts, and eventually ran out of wood...
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by rsy »

pecelot wrote:Haha, you don't have to tell me!

Image

Today I lost a 1-hour-and-37-minute-long game (without treaty!) as France vs Japan for this particular reason xD He just spammed ashis and flaming arrows, I had to balance my skirms, culverins, horse cannons, cuirs and mortars counts, and eventually ran out of wood...

How many layers of walls did u build? In such long games I like having 10 layers of walls and sending out a gendarme box to get japan's wonders. Without the wonders, japanese aren't as scary late game.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by deleted_user0 »

Alohomora wrote:french just don't seem to have body block units against super muskets...
anyway thanks for the tips!


Arsenal upped voltigeurs with cuir. Or cuir horse cannons maybe :p
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by greatscythe11 »

pecelot wrote:Haha, you don't have to tell me!

Image

Today I lost a 1-hour-and-37-minute-long game (without treaty!) as France vs Japan for this particular reason xD He just spammed ashis and flaming arrows, I had to balance my skirms, culverins, horse cannons, cuirs and mortars counts, and eventually ran out of wood...


I just have this theory about playing vs Japan.I spend one card like 700 wood for pike and xbows(or diplomatic intrigue as india for grenadiers) and use that to siege shrines by 6:00 min mark. Ofc I need a few cav like 5 huss for yumis and for kiiling monks if I can. So its a decent sieging force.Through sieging xp I sort of recover my card. Rest of my build stays the same and I age up. Through sieging I give myself some time by controlling the Japan eco and theoretically killing Ashis before they come out.In age 3, I add cannons(3-4) to hard counter Japanese Infantry and buildings including walls(Foundry seems necessary as well as 1k coin).I add halbs for heavy infantry canon protection, cuirs for tanky front line and some skirms for support.I push with that army by 11- 12 min mark(faster on Deccan maybe?) with pikes on shrines rebuilt.The Japanese player has 2 options-a)protect his shrines by making army in which case he'll be slow to age 3 and canons will be stronger. b) ignore the sieging in which case my shipment progression will be faster and his age 3 mass will be small.Also, 2 TP is quite easy to go for it seems in the MU.

Please share any opinion you have on the idea.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by forgrin »

greatscythe11 wrote:
pecelot wrote:Haha, you don't have to tell me!

Image

Today I lost a 1-hour-and-37-minute-long game (without treaty!) as France vs Japan for this particular reason xD He just spammed ashis and flaming arrows, I had to balance my skirms, culverins, horse cannons, cuirs and mortars counts, and eventually ran out of wood...


I just have this theory about playing vs Japan.I spend one card like 700 wood for pike and xbows(or diplomatic intrigue as india for grenadiers) and use that to siege shrines by 6:00 min mark. Ofc I need a few cav like 5 huss for yumis and for kiiling monks if I can. So its a decent sieging force.Through sieging xp I sort of recover my card. Rest of my build stays the same and I age up. Through sieging I give myself some time by controlling the Japan eco and theoretically killing Ashis before they come out.In age 3, I add cannons(3-4) to hard counter Japanese Infantry and buildings including walls(Foundry seems necessary as well as 1k coin).I add halbs for heavy infantry canon protection, cuirs for tanky front line and some skirms for support.I push with that army by 11- 12 min mark(faster on Deccan maybe?) with pikes on shrines rebuilt.The Japanese player has 2 options-a)protect his shrines by making army in which case he'll be slow to age 3 and canons will be stronger. b) ignore the sieging in which case my shipment progression will be faster and his age 3 mass will be small.Also, 2 TP is quite easy to go for it seems in the MU.

Please share any opinion you have on the idea.


As France, if you're going xbow pike start that can just outright beat Japan if played decently. You can age if you want but a good Japan player would recognise your lack of units after the initial few batches and push you, which is just giving them a chance to win by cheesing your falcs in ashi hand attack.

As India, if you scout them doing late rax this might work, but Japan would have to be retarded to late rax Vs India so you should win that anyways with a regular rush. Grens might help you clear shrines here but honestly just sowar and crate cards will be more useful, plus brit/Otto consulate and even the crates from French are just so much better than 4 grens.
The problem with early grens is that they don't do enough in fights if Japan just micros alright (stagger mode, dodging grenades). And, if Japan masses up early expecting a rush, then they'll just straight up outmass you once the grens are dealt with.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

umeu wrote:
Alohomora wrote:french just don't seem to have body block units against super muskets...
anyway thanks for the tips!


Arsenal upped voltigeurs with cuir. Or cuir horse cannons maybe :p

I tried it all!

rsy wrote:How many layers of walls did u build? In such long games I like having 10 layers of walls and sending out a gendarme box to get japan's wonders. Without the wonders, japanese aren't as scary late game.

It wouldn't matter since he could easily deal with that with ashi, I had enough walls, though lost some eco due to flanking raids by ashis and hatamotos — seriously, how do you catch them? :|
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by greatscythe11 »

2/3 horse guns+professional gunners+gunners quadrant(I have no idea what it does or how it helps)+trunnion?LOS wall may be helpful by increasing the reaction time window.Don't know about Engineering School.But then, it's just an idea.I have no experience of a game vs Japan that long.

EDIT:Forgot about Gribeuval system.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by tedere12 »

forgrin wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote:
pecelot wrote:Haha, you don't have to tell me!

Image

Today I lost a 1-hour-and-37-minute-long game (without treaty!) as France vs Japan for this particular reason xD He just spammed ashis and flaming arrows, I had to balance my skirms, culverins, horse cannons, cuirs and mortars counts, and eventually ran out of wood...


I just have this theory about playing vs Japan.I spend one card like 700 wood for pike and xbows(or diplomatic intrigue as india for grenadiers) and use that to siege shrines by 6:00 min mark. Ofc I need a few cav like 5 huss for yumis and for kiiling monks if I can. So its a decent sieging force.Through sieging xp I sort of recover my card. Rest of my build stays the same and I age up. Through sieging I give myself some time by controlling the Japan eco and theoretically killing Ashis before they come out.In age 3, I add cannons(3-4) to hard counter Japanese Infantry and buildings including walls(Foundry seems necessary as well as 1k coin).I add halbs for heavy infantry canon protection, cuirs for tanky front line and some skirms for support.I push with that army by 11- 12 min mark(faster on Deccan maybe?) with pikes on shrines rebuilt.The Japanese player has 2 options-a)protect his shrines by making army in which case he'll be slow to age 3 and canons will be stronger. b) ignore the sieging in which case my shipment progression will be faster and his age 3 mass will be small.Also, 2 TP is quite easy to go for it seems in the MU.

Please share any opinion you have on the idea.


As France, if you're going xbow pike start that can just outright beat Japan if played decently. You can age if you want but a good Japan player would recognise your lack of units after the initial few batches and push you, which is just giving them a chance to win by cheesing your falcs in ashi hand attack.

As India, if you scout them doing late rax this might work, but Japan would have to be retarded to late rax Vs India so you should win that anyways with a regular rush. Grens might help you clear shrines here but honestly just sowar and crate cards will be more useful, plus brit/Otto consulate and even the crates from French are just so much better than 4 grens.
The problem with early grens is that they don't do enough in fights if Japan just micros alright (stagger mode, dodging grenades). And, if Japan masses up early expecting a rush, then they'll just straight up outmass you once the grens are dealt with.

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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

greatscythe11 wrote:gunners quadrant(I have no idea what it does or how it helps)

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Arsenal :flowers:
Usually you don't have space for such cards, still it would not be enough to win vs Japan IMO, with all your other cards being standard :!:

@tedere12 , beautiful quote you have there, but can you elaborate? :hmm:
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by greatscythe11 »

pecelot wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote:gunners quadrant(I have no idea what it does or how it helps)

http://ageofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Arsenal :flowers:
Usually you don't have space for such cards, still it would not be enough to win vs Japan IMO, with all your other cards being standard :!:

Just realized French have pretty strong artillery actually.And Japan is basically an infantry heavy civ that has high attack infantry.Why not use a force multiplier?Why not use it if skirms don't make enough punch? Cuir halb horse artillery with cards?French eco late game is pretty strong as well as pop efficient.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

Indeed, that would be perhaps the best shot. To be honest, in the game I linked it was pretty tough, as my opponent constantly had around 8 flaming arrows and I had to find the right balance between horse cannons and culverins. The former didn't reach his artillery, whereas the latter he could reach by slowly getting into the range. :(
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by greatscythe11 »

The way I see it, if you try to take down whatever is covering the flaming arrow like ashi or wall, you might not need culverins. It is possible that if he's making too many flaming arrows there aren't enough ashis or vice versa.Why not target their cover(Ashi or wall) if you can't get there otherwise?Flaming arrows don't have multipliers vs artillery and they don't do as much damage as cannons.With AA and Cuir and horse cannon numbers there may still be enough cannons left to make a difference. Ofc heavy cannons have the same range as flaming arrow but are slower and difficult to mass.Mixing in 2 mortars could also help in taking down walls from distance and luring the flaming arrows out.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

Flaming arrows do have a multiplier vs artillery, that was the entire point. Even though I'm France, he still has 5 more population space for his military. Ashis can just march in and completely cock-block cuirs :?
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by fei123456 »

pecelot wrote:Flaming arrows do have a multiplier vs artillery, that was the entire point. Even though I'm France, he still has 5 more population space for his military. Ashis can just march in and completely cock-block cuirs :?

age 3 flaming arrow dont have multiplier. age 4 flaming arrow has 1.5*.
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Re: [RE]French vs Japan 2 games

Post by pecelot »

ikr, we're talking about late game :roll:

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