Are market upgrades really a must?

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China fei123456
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Are market upgrades really a must?

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Post by fei123456 »

I'm working on "10 best games of Goodspeed" videos recently, and I watched this record again:
[EP1 SP] mongo10[IN] vs GoodSpeed[BR] - ESOC Cascade Range.age3yrec
(961.47 KiB) Downloaded 57 times
ESOC Cascade Range
ESOC Cascade Range
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 1.0
Length: 11 minutes


This is an RO16 game of ESOC 2015 winter tournament, and is played with EP 1.0.0.0

Mongo10 played india and goes consulate rush, and goodspeed did a standard longbow/pike BO: 3v-700w-600w
When mongo did a scary timing push at around 7:00, goodspeed already has 18 pikes and 20 longbows! (and it can be 20 pike 20 lb if he macroed a bit better)
And a "consulate rush" suddenly became a "longbow pike rush". Impressive.

I'm amazed about how many unit goodspeed can spam, but suddenly I sense something ridiculous: why?
I've never seen a second player who can spam so many longbow+pike at 7:00. And goodspeed didn't get great treasures.

After I watched this rec 3 times I realized it: goodspeed didn't build a market.
So I did some math work here:

Let's just focus on food gathering, ignoring the gang saw tech.
Market+hunting dog+steel trap=275w 175g=841.67vs (count as 842vs below)
x/0.84-x/(0.84*1.3)=842, x=2574 (count as 2600 below)
x=food you need to gather to make your investment on market upgrades to pay off.

2600f is such a big number, that you can never gather before 7:00.
Goodspeed didn't build a market, and that's why he can spam so many units.
Yeah the market upgrades do pay off after you gather 2600 food. But then you'll have much less units at 7:00.
Tons of units-win a battle-win a game. Less units-lose a battle-your vills can't work for some time-.....-you may lose a game. So, are market really so good in some situations?
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France bwinner
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by bwinner »

20lb+20pikes cost 2000f+you make vils, so why would you not gather 2600f before 7 min ?
Or at least you do for sure a short time after this I guess.
When I play brit, the only situation where I don't get a early market is when I do mitoe's build with 5v 1st, because I need to make more manor in transition in this case and I want to still make 5 cav very early. (I build the market with 700w, 2nd shipment in this case). But brit is the civ with which market is the most important since they have a lot of vils early on (the more you have, the most effectiv+45% of them is)
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United States of America godzillaking
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by godzillaking »

Depending on the map they may not be worth it. Like when you get 1 hunt.
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by tedere12 »

yeah u use your vills to gather food and with crates you spawn lb pike, whats the follow up? You get a good mass but after 700 600w you are left with bad eco and no upgrades.
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China fei123456
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by fei123456 »

tedere12 wrote:yeah u use your vills to gather food and with crates you spawn lb pike, whats the follow up? You get a good mass but after 700 600w you are left with bad eco and no upgrades.

but goodspeed do a push with tons of longbow pike and the game is over :smile:
Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by momuuu »

As british I'm not sure if a market is always better than a manor. I'm also pretty sure consulate rush is not a good strat against british. Either way, you can mass up longbow pike pretty nicely as brits anyways.
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Hungary Dsy
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by Dsy »

Tp or market or both. Its the biggest question.
Tp is fast best for ff also fast and good for rush tactics.
Market you usually build it for slow colo play. Thats why its a must for british.
Tp + market. Can be used for ff, even for colo play. Most effective later but slow you down very badly. Id say riski without good treasures.

Overall tp is the best. Thats why some call it tp meta.
Australia Hazza54321
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by Hazza54321 »

it was on cascade range and he was gathering food and shipping wood, that map has 2 hunts so hunting dogs is questionable
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China fei123456
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by fei123456 »

I do a test on corolado vs AI
I didn't collect any treasure
My micro is not so good, but I tried my best anyway

1111.jpg
This is my no-market bo:
age up 18p 500f (i have 300w start and build 2 manor houses, just like what goodspeed did in that rec)
chop with all my vils, build 4 manor houses (70 pop limit), and keep chopping until I have 400w
put 2 raxes then put most of my vills on food, spam units with 700w 600w
I have 19 longbow 20 pike at 7:15. It can be 20 longbow 20 pike if I micro better/I collect some treasures.

2222.jpg
This is my market bo:
age up 18p 500f
chop for a market, gather 100f 50g for gangsaw and hunting dog, then put most of my vills on wood (but still keep some vils on gold)
When I reach age 2, do steel trap asap, put a rax and start to spam longbow, send 700w.
With 700w, build 2nd rax, some manor houses (till I have 70 pop limit too), and spam from 2 raxes.
I have about 30 units at 7:24, and another batch of pikes training.
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by Garja »

If you don't build a TP there is no reason to not get a market. Most of times you even have 50g for hunting dogs. I could understand skipping steel traps since that takes longer to pay off.
You can get 20-20 at 7 min with market, it rather depends on how many manors you make.
In your example you are at /70 pop so you are going to get housed soon. Especially if you already used 600w.
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No Flag deleted_user
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by deleted_user »

It seems the largest difference is that you put down 2x rax immediately with the no market build and delayed 2x rax with the market build - of course you will have fewer units.

The most obvious way to approach this to me is like so: steel traps is 842 VS down the drain - VS which you don't start earning back until allegedly 2600 food has been gathered. 842 VS = 5.5 longbowmen. So you're simply down ~5 longbows until 7 or 8 min or whatever.

In both of your trials you only manor boomed to 70 pop to max units which makes sense. 842 VS is worth ~3 manors. So if you made 3 extra manors in the no-market trial I'd reckon you'd have a similar -5 lb result.

Jerom is right, though. Because of the opportunity cost of manors, making a manor instead of researching a market upgrade is more efficient up until 10 villagers are on a resource for brits. They are less reliant upon market ups, manors generate valuable early xp, and as such gs perhaps made a smart intuition to forgo the market in that game.

I'd still market though. Hunting dogs takes less time to pay off and gangsaw is remarkably cheap and there is more of a follow up, plus the luxury of trading resources for minute men.
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by ssaraf »

I wud like to be in situation 2 any day ... I recently did a similar test with musks.. No market just sucks...
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

ssaraf wrote:I wud like to be in situation 2 any day ... I recently did a similar test with musks.. No market just sucks...

Musks are food heavy so you need steel faps
Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk

Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

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No Flag deleted_user
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Re: Are market upgrades really a must?

Post by deleted_user »

This reminds me of my 100 pikeman nr 10 strategy on deccan.

I'd like to see another rond of commnity challenges like the ones interjection hosted several years ago.

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