Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

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Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by watching »

Playing vs Piroshiki on Ozark. He went ff and added renegades, I went 10 musk semi.
Just sharing this so people can see his strat since it seemed that hes famous around here.
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[RE SP] piroshiki[SP] vs _Earthling_[FR] - Ozarks.age3yrec
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Ozarks
Ozarks
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 14 minutes
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Poland pecelot
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by pecelot »

@watching
Why age up with 13 CDBs when doing a market start? You have some idle time, generally it's better to train one more vill and then advance.
If you FF, you have to build a TP. The best time for it in your game would be the transition to Colonial Age. Without it your build is kinda awkward, as you couldn't ship 700w in time, which is also the tip of the iceberg.
Herd better next time, especially on such awful maps like Ozarks.
I'm not entirely convinced about that 10 musk semi, IMO either go for 5 more to be more effective and at the very least destroy the tower or just go 5 huss to idle him more than you'd otherwise do with infantry. A nice choice also would be to do a naked FF to catch up with him while having a better eco.
You didn't really focus the cannons until the end. Good first pick-up, but then you didn't manage to get rid of his second falconet. Thankfully, you killed it with CDBs later, but it's not really ideal.
You kited with skirms — that's good, but don't shoot at huss, pick heavy infantry instead.
If you see he's going mercs, don't hesitate and build a church — it's really cheap and you can trap his renegados nicely with some stealth spies.
EDIT: oh shit, I've just realised you won that game XD but yeah, with my little tips I think it could be achieved more easily :flowers:
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by yemshi »

Renegados don't get countered by spies
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by pecelot »

Oh, sorry, my bad, pretty counter-intuitive if you ask me. But hell, you learn everyday!
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by Rikikipu »

Yeah renegados are not mercenaries, they are outlaws, so they aren't countered by spies
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by Kaiserklein »

pecelot wrote:@watching
Why age up with 13 CDBs when doing a market start? You have some idle time, generally it's better to train one more vill and then advance.

Tbh you should age 13 whenever you can because it's really strong. Being faster doesn't only mean that you get military out faster (= better defense/rush) but also that you gain more resources : if you age 13 instead of 14 you'll indeed have 1 less cdb gathering during the 1:30 age up, but this get (more than) compensated because you send 4 cdbs 30 sec earlier and get steel traps earlier. So there's absolutely no reason to not age 13 whenever you can. Then we just need to describe "can", for my part if I have at least 700f at the 13th cdb out I decide to age 13, otherwise 14.

pecelot wrote:I'm not entirely convinced about that 10 musk semi, IMO either go for 5 more to be more effective and at the very least destroy the tower or just go 5 huss to idle him more than you'd otherwise do with infantry. A nice choice also would be to do a naked FF to catch up with him while having a better eco.

Don't go cav semi vs piro, it's useless, he'll have 8 pikes in time to defend anyway. I don't think you really need to destroy the tower, walling it up is enough. It's kinda lame but after all his strat is lame too, so... I think either way naked ff is the safest option.

pecelot wrote:If you see he's going mercs, don't hesitate and build a church — it's really cheap and you can trap his renegados nicely with some stealth spies.

Renegados aren't mercs, they're outlaws. Since they don't have the "merc" tag, spies do nothing against them. If you see him going renegados, the answer can simply be skirms, because renegados really suck vs skirms (they have lower range and a setup animation so you can basically kite them super hard), or then of course cav. But skirms are probs safer, since you know skirms beat his entire army except cav and falcs, but you know piro won't make a stable so he can have only 4 lancers 3 lancers 5 huss and 4 age up huss for the whole game, and when he starts mixing renegados you have already killed his falcs.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by KINGofOsmane »

he is the star at eso
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by pecelot »

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:@watching
Why age up with 13 CDBs when doing a market start? You have some idle time, generally it's better to train one more vill and then advance.

Tbh you should age 13 whenever you can because it's really strong. Being faster doesn't only mean that you get military out faster (= better defense/rush) but also that you gain more resources : if you age 13 instead of 14 you'll indeed have 1 less cdb gathering during the 1:30 age up, but this get (more than) compensated because you send 4 cdbs 30 sec earlier and get steel traps earlier. So there's absolutely no reason to not age 13 whenever you can. Then we just need to describe "can", for my part if I have at least 700f at the 13th cdb out I decide to age 13, otherwise 14.

I remember asking a question regarding that matter a while ago, and almost everyone told me that I should go for 14 CDBs and maybe get a Gang Saw upgrade sooner if I have more than enough food. Although, I remember Ryan replying that he always opts for 13 CDBs age up. That's just a side note, I've drawn proper conclusions myself, and they are very similar to yours, mentioned above. The reason I pointed that out, though, was that he stopped villager production when he had less than 650 food, which resulted in some TC idle time. IMHO it'd be just better to make one more CDB. In general I feel when you start with a market you can't always go for 13 CDBs, don't force faster age up at all cost then.

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:I'm not entirely convinced about that 10 musk semi, IMO either go for 5 more to be more effective and at the very least destroy the tower or just go 5 huss to idle him more than you'd otherwise do with infantry. A nice choice also would be to do a naked FF to catch up with him while having a better eco.

Don't go cav semi vs piro, it's useless, he'll have 8 pikes in time to defend anyway. I don't think you really need to destroy the tower, walling it up is enough. It's kinda lame but after all his strat is lame too, so... I think either way naked ff is the safest option.

Well, at least you force an age 2 shipment by that sort of aggression. What I meant is that these 10 musks didn't achieve almost anything positive. Of course they killed one vill, but I think it was more of an accident. The tower, placed defensively, didn't go down. Piro had almost no idle time with vills, which I think you can achieve by making some huss. Regardless, I'd just go for naked FF.

Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:If you see he's going mercs, don't hesitate and build a church — it's really cheap and you can trap his renegados nicely with some stealth spies.

Renegados aren't mercs, they're outlaws. Since they don't have the "merc" tag, spies do nothing against them. If you see him going renegados, the answer can simply be skirms, because renegados really suck vs skirms (they have lower range and a setup animation so you can basically kite them super hard), or then of course cav. But skirms are probs safer, since you know skirms beat his entire army except cav and falcs, but you know piro won't make a stable so he can have only 4 lancers 3 lancers 5 huss and 4 age up huss for the whole game, and when he starts mixing renegados you have already killed his falcs.

Yeah, my bad, I admit it again, after yemshi pointed that out I checked in the editor just to be 100% sure and that's indeed the case.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by britishmusketeer »

pecelot wrote:Well, at least you force an age 2 shipment by that sort of aggression. What I meant is that these 10 musks didn't achieve almost anything positive. Of course they killed one vill, but I think it was more of an accident. The tower, placed defensively, didn't go down. Piro had almost no idle time with vills, which I think you can achieve by making some huss. Regardless, I'd just go for naked FF.

Piro sends 8 pike regardless. 10 musk are super useful against spain's early fortress combo and french naked ff is kinda awkward(i guess 4 vill 700w is best variation) so you will have less units to hold the push.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by pecelot »

Well, even if so, you shouldn't waste them on unsuccessful tower siege.
Why not 4 CDBs —> 700c —> 1000w?
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by Kaiserklein »

pecelot wrote:I remember asking a question regarding that matter a while ago, and almost everyone told me that I should go for 14 CDBs and maybe get a Gang Saw upgrade sooner if I have more than enough food. Although, I remember Ryan replying that he always opts for 13 CDBs age up. That's just a side note, I've drawn proper conclusions myself, and they are very similar to yours, mentioned above. The reason I pointed that out, though, was that he stopped villager production when he had less than 650 food, which resulted in some TC idle time. IMHO it'd be just better to make one more CDB. In general I feel when you start with a market you can't always go for 13 CDBs, don't force faster age up at all cost then.

Yeah ok, but since you said "don't 13v on market" I thought you meant you can never 13v on market. While in fact you sometimes can, it just depends on the crate start, first hunt and treasures. And your macro ofc. You can even 13v with a TP on some maps with a small food treasure and 400f start.

Kaiserklein wrote:Well, at least you force an age 2 shipment by that sort of aggression. What I meant is that these 10 musks didn't achieve almost anything positive. Of course they killed one vill, but I think it was more of an accident. The tower, placed defensively, didn't go down. Piro had almost no idle time with vills, which I think you can achieve by making some huss. Regardless, I'd just go for naked FF.

No, you don't force a shipment because anyway piro is all in and he will ship 8 pikes (unless he goes church ff then he probs needs church card instead). He doesn't ship 5 vils, so he ships 8 pikes instead. Piro also usually makes his tower very forward, that's when you wall it up, otherwise if it's in base you won't be able to destroy it anyway and you won't be able to raid him either so better not make any unit. Well in fact you still can because piro's mechanics are bad, so you will probs kill some vils regardless of the tower.

pecelot wrote:Well, even if so, you shouldn't waste them on unsuccessful tower siege.
Why not 4 CDBs —> 700c —> 1000w?

This works only with an early TP. Otherwise 700g comes too late (you already have like 1600f 300g) and it's awkward, you don't age up super fast and kinda waste your 700g. With early TP though if you do it correctly you should have close to 1200f 1000g after you gathered 700g and age up before 7 min. Not sure about 1000w though, then I'd rather do 4 cdb 700w naked ff and gather all the resources for age up, because the timing you get is earlier than if you wait for 1000w, because you basically get your timing from your 2nd fortress shipment (it's when you used all the pop space from 700w), whereas if you send 1000w your timing is much later, something like 4th fortress shipment (1000w + 3 other shipments until you reach your max pop space and push). And vs piro you ofc want an earlier timing than that, even vs a normal spain ff actually. 1000w is more useful in semi-ff wars usually.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by pecelot »

Kaiserklein wrote:You can even 13v with a TP on some maps with a small food treasure and 400f start.

If you start with 400f, you also get only 100w, right? Isn't a TP then a worse option than a market (with like 70 coin in beaver treasures, which is a quite usual set-up).
Kaiserklein wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Well, at least you force an age 2 shipment by that sort of aggression. What I meant is that these 10 musks didn't achieve almost anything positive. Of course they killed one vill, but I think it was more of an accident. The tower, placed defensively, didn't go down. Piro had almost no idle time with vills, which I think you can achieve by making some huss. Regardless, I'd just go for naked FF.

No, you don't force a shipment because anyway piro is all in and he will ship 8 pikes (unless he goes church ff then he probs needs church card instead). He doesn't ship 5 vils, so he ships 8 pikes instead. Piro also usually makes his tower very forward, that's when you wall it up, otherwise if it's in base you won't be able to destroy it anyway and you won't be able to raid him either so better not make any unit. Well in fact you still can because piro's mechanics are bad, so you will probs kill some vils regardless of the tower.

I didn't know that, @britishmusketeer explained it above before.
In terms of a tower: sure, just in that particular game he placed it rather defensively — that's what I was referring to.
Kaiserklein wrote:
pecelot wrote:
pecelot wrote:Well, even if so, you shouldn't waste them on unsuccessful tower siege.
Why not 4 CDBs —> 700c —> 1000w?

This works only with an early TP. Otherwise 700g comes too late (you already have like 1600f 300g) and it's awkward, you don't age up super fast and kinda waste your 700g. With early TP though if you do it correctly you should have close to 1200f 1000g after you gathered 700g and age up before 7 min. Not sure about 1000w though, then I'd rather do 4 cdb 700w naked ff and gather all the resources for age up, because the timing you get is earlier than if you wait for 1000w, because you basically get your timing from your 2nd fortress shipment (it's when you used all the pop space from 700w), whereas if you send 1000w your timing is much later, something like 4th fortress shipment (1000w + 3 other shipments until you reach your max pop space and push). And vs piro you ofc want an earlier timing than that, even vs a normal spain ff actually. 1000w is more useful in semi-ff wars usually.

Ok, I gotta trust you in this matter. What I meant was that I'd recommend sending only 2 shipments in the Colonial Age — 4 CDBs and 700c — because you age faster since you don't train any military, so instead of shipping 700w after 700c you can wait just a bit more and gain additional 300w. I don't think in sucha a build you'd need 700w in colonial, but yeah, either this or 1000w, which can come a bit late, which on the other hand can be very detrimental when playing against piro. 4 CDBs —> 700w, though, seems better, as you can save up the necessary resources for the age-up quicker due to aforementioned no military production. :)
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by Kaiserklein »

pecelot wrote:If you start with 400f, you also get only 100w, right? Isn't a TP then a worse option than a market (with like 70 coin in beaver treasures, which is a quite usual set-up).

No, every start can have 400f. 100w 400f, 100w 100g 300f, 100w 100g 400f, 200w 300f, 200w 400f are the 5 possible starts. You're ofc not gonna TP on 100w 400f start unless you get a significant treasure to help, because it would mean idle time, while with market start you have close to no idle time. It's still possible to TP on this start though, but I wouldn't advise it most of the time.

pecelot wrote:Ok, I gotta trust you in this matter. What I meant was that I'd recommend sending only 2 shipments in the Colonial Age — 4 CDBs and 700c — because you age faster since you don't train any military, so instead of shipping 700w after 700c you can wait just a bit more and gain additional 300w. I don't think in sucha a build you'd need 700w in colonial, but yeah, either this or 1000w, which can come a bit late, which on the other hand can be very detrimental when playing against piro. 4 CDBs —> 700w, though, seems better, as you can save up the necessary resources for the age-up quicker due to aforementioned no military production. :)

But you actually don't really age faster with 4 cdb/700g if you don't train units. The limiting factor here is the time at which you get 700g. Without early TP, 700g comes rather late so you'll have almost 1200f ready even if you trained 5 huss (maybe something like 800f instead of 1200, but in only 15 seconds you'll gather the 400f anyway). If you didn't prod units, then you just have obscene amounts of food banked, and don't really age up faster. With an early TP though, 700g comes in much faster so you can go 4 cdb/700g naked ff. But even so, shipping 1000w after doing this build is awkward for the reasons I stated before (basically you get your timing much later and you don't want that vs piro).
That's why I'd rather go 4 cdb/700w naked ff either way. You don't need 700w for colonial btw, you use it for the exact same purpose as 1000w, except it comes earlier which means you will be able to ship unit shipments earlier in fortress for a faster timing. Also, you get your military buildings from 700w, which means that you can immediately start producing units from 2 buildings upon age up. If you wait for 1000w, then you can start producing units only 1 min after you aged up (40s shipment time + time to gather crates and build the rax/stable), which again you really don't want to do vs piro. And if you don't wait for 1000w, then it means you have to chop wood for those buildings (which means less resources to prod units), and end up having too much wood from 1000w.
And last but not least, why do you even need 1000w ? What are you going to build from 1000w that you wouldn't from 700w ? You only need a rax, a stable, and houses. Let's say you build one military building from 400w, then the other one from 700w, and also get 5 houses, it means 90 pop space, do you need more than that ? What are you going to do with the remaining 300w ? TPs or amalgamation are useless because you're facing piro and he's all in, so you don't need to boom (you already outboom him hard anyway), just to hold his early fortress timings. I really don't see why you'd need an extra 300w here.
So yeah, pretty sure 1000w is just useless vs piro, and 700w is enough. If you do have an early TP though, and can do the 4 cdb/700g naked ff thing, then I think it's pretty good vs piro. Just don't ship 1000w, instead ship military and chop some wood, I think it's better.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by fei123456 »

two ways to beat piro ff with french:
1. musk semi. the standard bo would be 4cdb 700g, but i'd prefer 700w 4cdb 700g, and start with 2 raxes. thus, you can have 10 pikes and 10 musks soon, kill his tower, hero and tps easily (10 musk may lose to hero+tower+dogs). you may reach fortress 2 minutes later, but you can raid with your musks to delay his timing push. then you send 2 cannons too, put all vills out to fight.
2. if you feel that you have lag and may lose the cannon duel, do a ff with 4cdb 700w and 2 tps. train goons, send 8 skirm 2 cannon or 2 cannon 8 skirm, and try to outmicro him.
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by sebnan12 »

u can just eco age 2 with fre lol.. and cdb his cannons and musk bows huss whateverneeded do the rest
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Re: Piroshiki FF renegades vs french nilla scrub

Post by HeatitUP_ »

pecelot wrote:Oh, sorry, my bad, pretty counter-intuitive if you ask me. But hell, you learn everyday!

I just learned that also and I've been playing this game since 2005 lol.... I also wonder if their outlaw tag was changed to that but I'm not sure because iamgrunt has spy decks and I'm pretty sure that kind of thing wouldn't fly now.

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