[RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

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[RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

So I'm playing a game on Ozarks as Aztec, which should be a very good advantage for me. my opponent is Japan. I decide to go around the map and kill off his shrines while playing eco heavy myself (so villager shipments, market ups, 3 WP). I mass up a bunch of units to do so.

Japan ages up. At this point I think I've lost because honestly Japanese units with veteran upgrades are very good, Yumi are very good, etc. So I'm not sure where my decision making went wrong here. He had walls. I don't like the idea of pushing into his base, but after watching the replay I'm wondering if that's basically the only choice I had.

The ideal time to push would be right before he starts aging, right? So should I have pushed hard into his base at that point? I watched the replay and I still can't fathom what the right decision was here. Attacking into his base when he has aged, when he has yumi and veteran upgrades, was just a game-ending move on my end, sure. But what would have been the right call?

Edit: this guy has 2300+ elo, lol.
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[RE SP] kami_ryu[AZ] vs SecretShogun93[JP] - Ozarks.age3yrec
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Ozarks
Ozarks
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 16 minutes
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by gibson »

You can just fi and lame the wc to the max. Also secretshogun is either a legitimately good player(which I doubt) or sketchy, If ya know what I mean.....
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:You can just fi and lame the wc to the max. Also secretshogun is either a legitimately good player(which I doubt) or sketchy, If ya know what I mean.....

You dont remember secretshogun being good/decent before hacks were a thing?
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by gibson »

Jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:You can just fi and lame the wc to the max. Also secretshogun is either a legitimately good player(which I doubt) or sketchy, If ya know what I mean.....

You dont remember secretshogun being good/decent before hacks were a thing?
i don't. Remember a year and a half ago I was pr17. I don't think he was spawning stuff but he seemed to always do the exact counter build to what I was doing. Could have been good scouting I guess.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by momuuu »

Well he was quite a bit above major level long long ago.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

Barring maphacks, what would a better player have done in this game? :P

If you read Kaiser's replies in the mercenary thread (not mine) he seems to say that you aren't allowed to let other civs do whatever they want. I felt like Japan was pretty greedy here, perhaps more so than me, which is why it paid off for him. I'm not sure.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by gibson »

kami_ryu wrote:Barring maphacks, what would a better player have done in this game? :P

If you read Kaiser's replies in the mercenary thread (not mine) he seems to say that you aren't allowed to let other civs do whatever they want. I felt like Japan was pretty greedy here, perhaps more so than me, which is why it paid off for him. I'm not sure.
if jap plays greedy you can just go 700w than military shipments and basically just right click tc
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by pecelot »

gibson wrote:You can just fi and lame the wc to the max.

Is that really all that comes to your mind :mad:
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by gh0st »

kami_ryu wrote:Barring maphacks, what would a better player have done in this game? :P

If you read Kaiser's replies in the mercenary thread (not mine) he seems to say that you aren't allowed to let other civs do whatever they want. I felt like Japan was pretty greedy here, perhaps more so than me, which is why it paid off for him. I'm not sure.

"I decide to go around the map and kill off his shrines while playing eco heavy myself "
while this can be good sometime, but here you are just playing in Japan's hand imo. You kinda have to rush him (higher priority than sieging shrines) to disrupt his eco/bo by forcing him to send army shipment(s). I don't think you can let japan age 3 with something like 600, 4, 4/600 by just sieging shrines. Although if you do enough damage by rushing, you can eco up a bit yourself while clearing shrines all over map while massing for a hard timing or smthing.
ps. couldn't watch rec, so speaking in general what I feel.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by gibson »

pecelot wrote:
gibson wrote:You can just fi and lame the wc to the max.

Is that really all that comes to your mind :mad:
yesh
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by Garja »

You either rush or you lose basically. You don't rush if he goes for turtle FI strats or stuff like that.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

All right then, I need to rush. Best way to do that is basically 700w + unit shipments, right? Can I still send puma (just the shipment) around the map to kill shrines in the mean time? Or should everything be for the rush?
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by lemmings121 »

kami_ryu wrote:All right then, I need to rush. Best way to do that is basically 700w + unit shipments, right? Can I still send puma (just the shipment) around the map to kill shrines in the mean time? Or should everything be for the rush?


current meta favored by most people is the fast are up, 700w, militar shipments, should be good vs japs. and yes I would get the pumas to siege but maybe some people might preffer pure mace coyo to break the jap... not sure, I prefer having a few pumas, but I dont have a lot of experience with the civ.

Oldschool people used a different bo that I still like and do vs jap, rushing with 2skulls age up, you can upgrade BB in the firepit and have skulls on the map with the wc, taking out shrines pretty fast and giving you like 200xp each. while you pressure the base with mace coyos.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by deleted_user »

Doesn't yumi + wall make pushing their base not effective/unviable? Then I would think the proper course of action is to efficiently take out shrines and gain map control while booming in the background, taking advantage of killing ~1500w in shrines throughout the game and keeping those shrines off the map.

Maybe I'm too afraid of some walls. I always just play Brit into Japan and lbows outrange yummies anyway so the walls are just one big waste of wood :)
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

deleted_user wrote:Doesn't yumi + wall make pushing their base not effective/unviable? Then I would think the proper course of action is to efficiently take out shrines and gain map control while booming in the background, taking advantage of killing ~1500w in shrines throughout the game and keeping those shrines off the map.

Maybe I'm too afraid of some walls. I always just play Brit into Japan and lbows outrange yummies anyway so the walls are just one big waste of wood :)


I agree I'm also afraid of walls but I think you gotta push in. I think defensive Japan wins in the long run and playing too passively allows them to do that. I need to play more to find out. But stuff like irregulars for Japan is so scary, lol

lemmings121 wrote:
kami_ryu wrote:All right then, I need to rush. Best way to do that is basically 700w + unit shipments, right? Can I still send puma (just the shipment) around the map to kill shrines in the mean time? Or should everything be for the rush?


current meta favored by most people is the fast are up, 700w, militar shipments, should be good vs japs. and yes I would get the pumas to siege but maybe some people might preffer pure mace coyo to break the jap... not sure, I prefer having a few pumas, but I dont have a lot of experience with the civ.

Oldschool people used a different bo that I still like and do vs jap, rushing with 2skulls age up, you can upgrade BB in the firepit and have skulls on the map with the wc, taking out shrines pretty fast and giving you like 200xp each. while you pressure the base with mace coyos.


1, lines up with the idea that you need to just be in their base and do damage. Will try that.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by __Uhlan__ »

700w 600w 10 mace 9 mace gg no re imo, full coyo but scout ofc but the 19 mace should be plenty, and can also make some mace instead of coyote. Honestly if he is going greedy on shrines there is no way he can hold the rush so forget killing the shrines & just take out his rax and don't let him gather. After 9 mace probably coyote combat or 5 vills. But the game shouldn't get this long tbh. During age gather for a warhut + 50c/100f for a vill & hunt dogs with 700w make coyote & get hunting dogs & houses. All vills on food, 600w to just keep spamming with no idle time. Once 600w arrives send like 3-4 vills to wood & all new vills to wood so once you run out your already macroed to keep making units. And work on keeping your hero like on control group 4 or 5 and keep him in the back of your army to get the bonus XP, unless you really need him in the fight or you need to snare some units etc.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

__Uhlan__ wrote:700w 600w 10 mace 9 mace gg no re imo, full coyo but scout ofc but the 19 mace should be plenty, and can also make some mace instead of coyote. Honestly if he is going greedy on shrines there is no way he can hold the rush so forget killing the shrines & just take out his rax and don't let him gather. After 9 mace probably coyote combat or 5 vills. But the game shouldn't get this long tbh. During age gather for a warhut + 50c/100f for a vill & hunt dogs with 700w make coyote & get hunting dogs & houses. All vills on food, 600w to just keep spamming with no idle time. Once 600w arrives send like 3-4 vills to wood & all new vills to wood so once you run out your already macroed to keep making units. And work on keeping your hero like on control group 4 or 5 and keep him in the back of your army to get the bonus XP, unless you really need him in the fight or you need to snare some units etc.


Thank you. I never thought that Japan could be greedy -> so just go into his base and wreak havoc.

Smart advice, I'll try to adhere to this principle should I ever find myself in this match up again.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by Rikikipu »

Kami_ryu welcome to the group of people who have never understand how to beat japan. I'm the leader.
Tbh I prefer 1000 times to play vs an otto or iro lamer than a japanese waller
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Secret shogun is optimus i think
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

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Post by Garja »

I forgot to mention the ultimate build for beating Jap. Ultimate because it is straight up forcing so you basically dont need much adaptation if a ything at all.
6 puma, 10 mace 9 mace 700w 600w,etc. I tend to not make a market with this early on since you're basically not producing units for 6 mins or so. I get xp tech from firepit instead since shipments are key and you end up sieging something anyway (or fighting units if jap goes for useless unit shipment builds).
6 puma kill couple shrines before jap has any unit out and by the time he has something you have 19 maces. You keep 10 vills+ TC rally point on wood for 2 houses and war hut. You send 2 vills foaard when you have about 100w after 2nd house. Wh should be up just before 9 maces arrive so they spawn from it. You can just run around and kill shrines for free and engage in big battle whenever you feel to. I normally build full coyo after 700w since he mostly certainly is making yumi and anyway it forces ashis which is the hardest countered unit out of the 3. With 700w 600w you keep all vills on food and can also drop a 2nd wh. 5v probably go to wood iirc. You easily outboom jap with 4v etc. since the shipment rate is very high and then you have 4wp on fertility.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

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Post by optimusprime »

he must be a hacker nobody can be as good as him
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by aaryngend »

Garja wrote:I forgot to mention the ultimate build for beating Jap. Ultimate because it is straight up forcing so you basically dont need much adaptation if a ything at all.
6 puma, 10 mace 9 mace 700w 600w,etc. I tend to not make a market with this early on since you're basically not producing units for 6 mins or so. I get xp tech from firepit instead since shipments are key and you end up sieging something anyway (or fighting units if jap goes for useless unit shipment builds).
6 puma kill couple shrines before jap has any unit out and by the time he has something you have 19 maces. You keep 10 vills+ TC rally point on wood for 2 houses and war hut. You send 2 vills foaard when you have about 100w after 2nd house. Wh should be up just before 9 maces arrive so they spawn from it. You can just run around and kill shrines for free and engage in big battle whenever you feel to. I normally build full coyo after 700w since he mostly certainly is making yumi and anyway it forces ashis which is the hardest countered unit out of the 3. With 700w 600w you keep all vills on food and can also drop a 2nd wh. 5v probably go to wood iirc. You easily outboom jap with 4v etc. since the shipment rate is very high and then you have 4wp on fertility.
What about the 2 Warhut unit max build at 7-8min? I saw you doing it once. It has no early aggression but the biggest mass possible at the 7-8min mark.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by kami_ryu »

Garja wrote:I forgot to mention the ultimate build for beating Jap. Ultimate because it is straight up forcing so you basically dont need much adaptation if a ything at all.
6 puma, 10 mace 9 mace 700w 600w,etc. I tend to not make a market with this early on since you're basically not producing units for 6 mins or so. I get xp tech from firepit instead since shipments are key and you end up sieging something anyway (or fighting units if jap goes for useless unit shipment builds).
6 puma kill couple shrines before jap has any unit out and by the time he has something you have 19 maces. You keep 10 vills+ TC rally point on wood for 2 houses and war hut. You send 2 vills foaard when you have about 100w after 2nd house. Wh should be up just before 9 maces arrive so they spawn from it. You can just run around and kill shrines for free and engage in big battle whenever you feel to. I normally build full coyo after 700w since he mostly certainly is making yumi and anyway it forces ashis which is the hardest countered unit out of the 3. With 700w 600w you keep all vills on food and can also drop a 2nd wh. 5v probably go to wood iirc. You easily outboom jap with 4v etc. since the shipment rate is very high and then you have 4wp on fertility.


this is a nice build btw, i use it now and then. had a gg with it

https://youtu.be/tV5_5uPqZzk?t=53m20s
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by Garja »

aaryngend wrote:
Garja wrote:I forgot to mention the ultimate build for beating Jap. Ultimate because it is straight up forcing so you basically dont need much adaptation if a ything at all.
6 puma, 10 mace 9 mace 700w 600w,etc. I tend to not make a market with this early on since you're basically not producing units for 6 mins or so. I get xp tech from firepit instead since shipments are key and you end up sieging something anyway (or fighting units if jap goes for useless unit shipment builds).
6 puma kill couple shrines before jap has any unit out and by the time he has something you have 19 maces. You keep 10 vills+ TC rally point on wood for 2 houses and war hut. You send 2 vills foaard when you have about 100w after 2nd house. Wh should be up just before 9 maces arrive so they spawn from it. You can just run around and kill shrines for free and engage in big battle whenever you feel to. I normally build full coyo after 700w since he mostly certainly is making yumi and anyway it forces ashis which is the hardest countered unit out of the 3. With 700w 600w you keep all vills on food and can also drop a 2nd wh. 5v probably go to wood iirc. You easily outboom jap with 4v etc. since the shipment rate is very high and then you have 4wp on fertility.
What about the 2 Warhut unit max build at 7-8min? I saw you doing it once. It has no early aggression but the biggest mass possible at the 7-8min mark.

Too all in I dont like it vs Japan. There are simply better ways to exploit your civ advantage in that MU.
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Re: [RE] Aztec against Japan - correct decisions?

Post by deleted_user0 »

aaryngend wrote:
Garja wrote:I forgot to mention the ultimate build for beating Jap. Ultimate because it is straight up forcing so you basically dont need much adaptation if a ything at all.
6 puma, 10 mace 9 mace 700w 600w,etc. I tend to not make a market with this early on since you're basically not producing units for 6 mins or so. I get xp tech from firepit instead since shipments are key and you end up sieging something anyway (or fighting units if jap goes for useless unit shipment builds).
6 puma kill couple shrines before jap has any unit out and by the time he has something you have 19 maces. You keep 10 vills+ TC rally point on wood for 2 houses and war hut. You send 2 vills foaard when you have about 100w after 2nd house. Wh should be up just before 9 maces arrive so they spawn from it. You can just run around and kill shrines for free and engage in big battle whenever you feel to. I normally build full coyo after 700w since he mostly certainly is making yumi and anyway it forces ashis which is the hardest countered unit out of the 3. With 700w 600w you keep all vills on food and can also drop a 2nd wh. 5v probably go to wood iirc. You easily outboom jap with 4v etc. since the shipment rate is very high and then you have 4wp on fertility.
What about the 2 Warhut unit max build at 7-8min? I saw you doing it once. It has no early aggression but the biggest mass possible at the 7-8min mark.


Azzy can do an 8 min push with 20 coyote, 19 mace 3jpk and 6 pike while having 5 stagecoach to. It's a super op build on any tp map, and if you somehow manage to fuck up the timing, you will have an insane eco after it anyway cuz while ur fighting and he's shipping unit shipments to hold probably, ur shipping 3 wp and 5+4 vil

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