LordRaphael vs _H2O

[gibson]

nothing new here, just ssMgc clan takin care of bizness.

this was just a light day of work for ssMgc tbh

[sirmusket]

To my bestie, Ryan.

I actually listened to this, what am I doing wit my life

[mGravitus]

So I guess rushing is not dead then?

3 of the 5 games raph won were serious colonial pressure - 2 russian and 1 decade old "all-in-right-click-TC-Jan-rush" aka the 6pool of aoe3.

I was rooting for LordRaph as the underdog, but dang dude... not like this.

[deleted_user]

Rumor has it EP team has conceded that Russia is indeed broken now and that the Jan HP nerf should not have been reverted.

If you ask me, naked ff vs any all in rush shouldn't work, so I have no problems with the Otto/Spain game. Though that was an absurd number of jans at an absurd in game time.

I'm interested in the steps the EP team takes now to make sure that every game is played with a tp semi ff build order.

[fei123456]

Rumor has it EP team has conceded that Russia is indeed broken now and that the Jan HP nerf should not have been reverted.

If you ask me, naked ff vs any all in rush shouldn't work, so I have no problems with the Otto/Spain game. Though that was an absurd number of jans at an absurd in game time.

I'm interested in the steps the EP team takes now to make sure that every game is played with a tp semi ff build order.

it's the 150g treasure that determines this game.
however, just as i've said before, H2O won many of the games with his insane micro, treasure steal, vill fight, and opponent's mistake...... but what will happen if there's a H2O from parallel world, who also have insane micro, and don't make mistakes?
i just didn't realize that lordraphael is the mirror H2O until the games ended.

[Dsy]

The name is too long, will lead to the video can not see。

Rename it and it will work.

[iNcog]

there's only one mirror? wow

[DaRkNiTe1698]

Garja leaving raphel leaving Ryan probably gonna quite to goongoon will disappear til the next tourney Mongo probably taking a break too next thing you know me sircallen and Jerom will be top players.

lmao

[DaRkNiTe1698]

Ggs guys!

I'd like to hear what h2o thinks about this series, Raphael already said what he thinks about this final

Sad to see some players leave indeed, especially I mind to see garja leaving, but they're probably busy and also I am sure they're tired to wait 30 min to find a game.

Wp by both and I want to thank not them only, for their entertaining series, but also (and especially) who made this event, I got much fun even if I lost so early on tourney.

I hope there will be another tournament soon

[DaRkNiTe1698]

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=551

@umeu

notification

can you update it?

[pecelot]

many people announced their partial or entire retirement after the Summer Championship, and yet they came back afterwards

[deleted_user0]

Rumor has it EP team has conceded that Russia is indeed broken now and that the Jan HP nerf should not have been reverted.

If you ask me, naked ff vs any all in rush shouldn't work, so I have no problems with the Otto/Spain game. Though that was an absurd number of jans at an absurd in game time.

I'm interested in the steps the EP team takes now to make sure that every game is played with a tp semi ff build order.

it's the 150g treasure that determines this game.
however, just as i've said before, H2O won many of the games with his insane micro, treasure steal, vill fight, and opponent's mistake...... but what will happen if there's a H2O from parallel world, who also have insane micro, and don't make mistakes?
i just didn't realize that lordraphael is the mirror H2O until the games ended.

Hes not, and 150c did not decide that game (h20 got 165w which is better) and spain naked ff is the only way to beat janrush. Ive done it so many times, and i lack the vill defense skills of ryan. Problem is just in almost all these mus, ryan had to play perfect to win, while rapha was playing civs that dobt need that, apart from g1 and the mirror. So while spain beats otto, they only do if u dont make mistakes.

[fei123456]

Rumor has it EP team has conceded that Russia is indeed broken now and that the Jan HP nerf should not have been reverted.

If you ask me, naked ff vs any all in rush shouldn't work, so I have no problems with the Otto/Spain game. Though that was an absurd number of jans at an absurd in game time.

I'm interested in the steps the EP team takes now to make sure that every game is played with a tp semi ff build order.

it's the 150g treasure that determines this game.
however, just as i've said before, H2O won many of the games with his insane micro, treasure steal, vill fight, and opponent's mistake...... but what will happen if there's a H2O from parallel world, who also have insane micro, and don't make mistakes?
i just didn't realize that lordraphael is the mirror H2O until the games ended.

Hes not, and 150c did not decide that game (h20 got 165w which is better) and spain naked ff is the only way to beat janrush. Ive done it so many times, and i lack the vill defense skills of ryan. Problem is just in almost all these mus, ryan had to play perfect to win, while rapha was playing civs that dobt need that, apart from g1 and the mirror. So while spain beats otto, they only do if u dont make mistakes.

125 gold=6 janissaries
165w is good indeed, but after h2o sent 700w he really doesnt need so much wood: did he get popped until gg?

[deleted_user0]

165w means he barely has to chop for tp, means he can get gather 150c for mm before he ages, means he should be up fast. but he made 1 vill to many and he mistimed his units because of that too. basically, he didnt play perfect, but he had to do many more things right, while rapha only had to do like 3 things right, which was click shipments, wait for 20 jans and click tc. obviously it doesnt compare.

Anyone can do this strat as well as raphael if they know what to do and beat ryan in the same way if he played like that. None of that makes them the mirror h2o. thing is just that in g1 and g3, ryan lost because he did a bad strat, and then in g4 and g5 he just didnt try anymore. I was talking with him, mitoe as well, and he had already given up.

in fact im quite sure that i can beat that jan rush consistently if i get the tres h2o did, all it takes is to make 1 vill less. He made 18 vill, while u should make 17 at most. Usually if you don't have such great tres, u can only make 16, and if you dont have good tres at all, you can only make 15. But even with 15, u still win. That 1 vill, those 20 secs, is the difference between winnning and losing. Imagine if his hus came 20 sec earlier, they wouldve come with his 8 pike (imo 7 rods is better but it doesnt matter that much) 4 dogs and mm. He wouldve crushed those jans there and he wouldve had enough time to hold untill 5 lancer came and then he wouldve just won.

also I checked the rec, and the 150 c was totally irrelevant during this game. Rapha just did standard rush, he had 20 jans at 6 min, and then he shipped 5 more and like 5 more came in. You can literally always do that, regardless of your tres. Ryan had already lost by the time the jans u could extra make from the 150c came into play.


edit he even got 225 w

[lordraphael]

its easy to say he picked "bad strats " as an observer and in retrospective. However I dont think he picked bad strats in both the india dutch and the azzie mirror.
Ive played india dutch a few times infact i probably played this mu more than any other player on the EP and what ryan did was infact the best strat, maybe preparing for a timing instead of a rush would have been even better . I know you were advocating a karni (semi) ff but that just doesnt cut it. A consulate rush is still one of the best shots of india to beat dutch because its easy to make a micro mistake or not prepare properly. That strat looked suboptimal because i had prepared for it (cm/ pikes ) not becasue its necessarily bad.

Also he didnt pick a bad strat in the azzie mirror. Thats such an oversimplification. I had watched all of his azzie mirror beforehand and i knew what he would do and I had identified a weakness which i tried to epxloit. Now was it a "bad build" because it hasnt worked 1 time ( while actually hasnt lost an azzie mirror for 2 tourneys before that loss and he played quite a few actually ) or was it me just having a decent counter build to his build ? Imo its the latter, every build has a counter so saying he picked bad builds is misleading imo. Thats easy to say after everything is settled.

About the otto spain yea he should have won. You dont even need to do fancy stuff with spain, all you have to do is send cm and youve won. I tested this when i played spain and CM hold it everytime for me. However by that time i could have probably just mirrored him and still won because he was tilted at that time, thats was obvious.

The ger vs port was just a rape. However i dont think any civ except for spain and (maybe russia ??) has really a chance on that map vs ports. Also RE ger would have lost this game the 5 tps and the way they cut the map in 2 sides and give you constant LOS just makes it impossible to win. Not even mentioning the insane eco boost AND the positional advantage they give you by being mini outposts at the same time. You can argue if its the card that is broken or the amount of tps on the map. Imo its a probalem with the number of tps per map but ive expressed my opinion countless of times and nothing happened so w.e.

The brit vs russia I think i played better. It slightly russia favoured probably ( imo the mu is so close that its hard to tell. ) He also didnt play it very well imo. The fact that i killed his explorer was pretty significant imo. Bad stable and outpost placement were the result of it .

The india vs russia game. Well again, he was so tilted I could have just mirrored his india and won. When he lost his monks to the guardians it was over. I didnt want to play this mu actually. Imo russia>india except if h2o plays india because then its suddenly india favoured :). Just another way of saying perfect russia play< perfect india play.

[deleted_user0]

its easy to say he picked "bad strats " as an observer and in retrospective. However I dont think he picked bad strats in both the india dutch and the azzie mirror.
Ive played india dutch a few times infact i probably played this mu more than any other player on the EP and what ryan did was infact the best strat, maybe preparing for a timing instead of a rush would have been even better . I know you were advocating a karni (semi) ff but that just doesnt cut it. A consulate rush is still one of the best shots of india to beat dutch because its easy to make a micro mistake or not prepare properly. That strat looked suboptimal because i had prepared for it (cm/ pikes ) not becasue its necessarily bad.

well here we can have differing opinions, imo the cons rush is just a bad strat, if you scout it, which is easy to do, then its also easy to hold imo, if you have good map. Yesterday i lost in india mirror to cons rush, which i scouted, to a captain, because i had no hunts, so while i held the first push, i couldnt hold reinforcements cuz he was trickling them in onto my only hunt. if you dont react properly then the strat can be strong. im no sure how good the karni semi does on ep cuz dutch is better, but on re it totally smashes dutch.

Also he didnt pick a bad strat in the azzie mirror. Thats such an oversimplification. I had watched all of his azzie mirror beforehand and i knew what he would do and I had identified a weakness which i tried to epxloit. Now was it a "bad build" because it hasnt worked 1 time ( while actually hasnt lost an azzie mirror for 2 tourneys before that loss and he played quite a few actually ) or was it me just having a decent counter build to his build ? Imo its the latter, every build has a counter so saying he picked bad builds is misleading imo. Thats easy to say after everything is settled.

its a bit of an oversimplication, but not much. in azzy mirror imo u should never get away with 5v, if u dont send units after 700w imo u gotta send wp. but just in general, if both players make fb next to each other, the only good option is to send units units units. I didnt do it vs goongoon and lost, if i had done just units units units, i wouldve won. and ryan wouldve atleast not lose at that point, if he had sent units instead of 5v. 5v there in that situation was simply bad. there is no other way to put it. if u had for example sent 600w he wouldve gotten away with it, but it still wouldve been a mistake, u just would not have punished it.

About the otto spain yea he should have won. You dont even need to do fancy stuff with spain, all you have to do is send cm and youve won. I tested this when i played spain and CM hold it everytime for me. However by that time i could have probably just mirrored him and still won because he was tilted at that time, thats was obvious

.

ye, tho imo you dont even need cm, but that can work too.

The brit vs russia I think i played better. It slightly russia favoured probably ( imo the mu is so close that its hard to tell. ) He also didnt play it very well imo. The fact that i killed his explorer was pretty significant imo. Bad stable and outpost placement were the result of it .

ye he didnt play it that well.

The india vs russia game. Well again, he was so tilted I could have just mirrored his india and won. When he lost his monks to the guardians it was over. I didnt want to play this mu actually. Imo russia>india except if h2o plays india because then its suddenly india favoured :). Just another way of saying perfect russia play< perfect india play.

ye the last 2 games were kinda meaningless.

[Dsy]

Hmm intresting view of the game.
I watched the recs now.

Dutch vs india. I felt until the cm and 4 banks + 1 barack built early it was already over. Dutch just had million times better eco. I agree with raph maybe h2o shouldhave just push more agressive cause time was for dutch. But wouldnt be in this mu as india me either. And actually i think H2o loses even if he pushing early, cause dutch until the 4 banks built just could have won in age2 also.
British vs russia. I played france vs russia mu on re pretty a lot. I had an expreience that stable doesnt work vs a very agressive russain rush. Actually it wasnt working for h2o neither. I dont know if he builds barack anything changes though... Anyone knows?
In otto vs spain. I think h2o did well. He clicked to age in 5:28 which is very nice with a tp. He microed quite good. I think its civ difference. Maybe rapha again right cm can save a life in this mu. I played mostly RE and with 1 hunt it just doesnt help. But on EP with 2 hunts actually can be good. But without cm its no way to hold it.
In india vs russia. Nothing to say. H2O was angry didnt care about game.
In azzie mirror H2O went in a trap. Raph saw H2o always send vills early and he just sent army instead, maybe wanted to push but was lucky H2o did it instead of him.
Port vs german. Time was for port cause of the tp line. It was really port favoured. FF was a bad decision, but who knows better as german. Maybe fight for tp line in colo... Would be a pain too.

[Challenger_Marco]

First of all congrats to LordRaphael.When I woke up and saw the I was very surprised.Thx for the series WP by both.I guess it was a great revenge for Raphael and he also proved that anyone can beat h2o with some homeworks.And really Raphael proved h2o is mortal now.So expecting more from rapha Ryan irish bs_op etc.I think there are still many players to give challenge to these players !!!

[deleted_user0]

Hmm intresting view of the game.
I watched the recs now.

In otto vs spain. I think h2o did well. He clicked to age in 5:28 which is very nice with a tp. He microed quite good. I think its civ difference. Maybe rapha again right cm can save a life in this mu. I played mostly RE and with 1 hunt it just doesnt help. But on EP with 2 hunts actually can be good. But without cm its no way to hold it.

watch it again, he clicked up with 18v, but he had 700c on the floor and 1200f with 17 already. which means he couldve clicked up at 5.10 which is a 7 min age up. he wouldve easily won then. people just dont understand how crucial these 20 seconds are. i made a similar mistake vs goongoon in spain vs russia and it was what cost me the game. i made other mistakes later on as well, but none were as big as aging up 20 seconds too late for no reason but just bad decision making.

[fei123456]

Hmm intresting view of the game.
I watched the recs now.

In otto vs spain. I think h2o did well. He clicked to age in 5:28 which is very nice with a tp. He microed quite good. I think its civ difference. Maybe rapha again right cm can save a life in this mu. I played mostly RE and with 1 hunt it just doesnt help. But on EP with 2 hunts actually can be good. But without cm its no way to hold it.

watch it again, he clicked up with 18v, but he had 700c on the floor and 1200f with 17 already. which means he couldve clicked up at 5.10 which is a 7 min age up. he wouldve easily won then. people just dont understand how crucial these 20 seconds are. i made a similar mistake vs goongoon in spain vs russia and it was what cost me the game. i made other mistakes later on as well, but none were as big as aging up 20 seconds too late for no reason but just bad decision making.

no! age up with fewer vills is to follow the evil path of piroshiki, to surrender to the dark side!
seriously, isn't cm card better than cutting off vill training?

[Dsy]

Hmm intresting view of the game.
I watched the recs now.

In otto vs spain. I think h2o did well. He clicked to age in 5:28 which is very nice with a tp. He microed quite good. I think its civ difference. Maybe rapha again right cm can save a life in this mu. I played mostly RE and with 1 hunt it just doesnt help. But on EP with 2 hunts actually can be good. But without cm its no way to hold it.

watch it again, he clicked up with 18v, but he had 700c on the floor and 1200f with 17 already. which means he couldve clicked up at 5.10 which is a 7 min age up. he wouldve easily won then. people just dont understand how crucial these 20 seconds are. i made a similar mistake vs goongoon in spain vs russia and it was what cost me the game. i made other mistakes later on as well, but none were as big as aging up 20 seconds too late for no reason but just bad decision making.

no! age up with fewer vills is to follow the evil path of piroshiki, to surrender to the dark side!
seriously, isn't cm card better than cutting off vill training?

Its not piro. If he gatheres only food he can age up like 5:10 (if quite lucky or good micro) But in most of the time you are not lucky with treasures and then if u click 5:10 you can forget about tps...

[deleted_user0]

imo its not, i never liked cm. when i tested it ages ago, cm was worse than cutting 1 vil. cuz if u dont cut vil and send cm, u can still lose. so u gotta cut vil + cm

[deleted_user0]

Show hidden quotes

Hmm intresting view of the game.
I watched the recs now.

In otto vs spain. I think h2o did well. He clicked to age in 5:28 which is very nice with a tp. He microed quite good. I think its civ difference. Maybe rapha again right cm can save a life in this mu. I played mostly RE and with 1 hunt it just doesnt help. But on EP with 2 hunts actually can be good. But without cm its no way to hold it.

watch it again, he clicked up with 18v, but he had 700c on the floor and 1200f with 17 already. which means he couldve clicked up at 5.10 which is a 7 min age up. he wouldve easily won then. people just dont understand how crucial these 20 seconds are. i made a similar mistake vs goongoon in spain vs russia and it was what cost me the game. i made other mistakes later on as well, but none were as big as aging up 20 seconds too late for no reason but just bad decision making.

no! age up with fewer vills is to follow the evil path of piroshiki, to surrender to the dark side!
seriously, isn't cm card better than cutting off vill training?

Its not piro. If he gatheres only food he can age up like 5:10 (if quite lucky or good micro) But in most of the time you are not lucky with treasures and then if u click 5:10 you can forget about tps...

its not piro, piro is bad cuz he does with 12-14 v what u can do with 15-17v. also you can always do a 15/16 ff at 7.05 without tres. i proved it long time ago on nilla,

[fei123456]

its easy to say he picked "bad strats " as an observer and in retrospective. However I dont think he picked bad strats in both the india dutch and the azzie mirror.
Ive played india dutch a few times infact i probably played this mu more than any other player on the EP and what ryan did was infact the best strat, maybe preparing for a timing instead of a rush would have been even better . I know you were advocating a karni (semi) ff but that just doesnt cut it. A consulate rush is still one of the best shots of india to beat dutch because its easy to make a micro mistake or not prepare properly. That strat looked suboptimal because i had prepared for it (cm/ pikes ) not becasue its necessarily bad.

Also he didnt pick a bad strat in the azzie mirror. Thats such an oversimplification. I had watched all of his azzie mirror beforehand and i knew what he would do and I had identified a weakness which i tried to epxloit. Now was it a "bad build" because it hasnt worked 1 time ( while actually hasnt lost an azzie mirror for 2 tourneys before that loss and he played quite a few actually ) or was it me just having a decent counter build to his build ? Imo its the latter, every build has a counter so saying he picked bad builds is misleading imo. Thats easy to say after everything is settled.

About the otto spain yea he should have won. You dont even need to do fancy stuff with spain, all you have to do is send cm and youve won. I tested this when i played spain and CM hold it everytime for me. However by that time i could have probably just mirrored him and still won because he was tilted at that time, thats was obvious.

The ger vs port was just a rape. However i dont think any civ except for spain and (maybe russia ??) has really a chance on that map vs ports. Also RE ger would have lost this game the 5 tps and the way they cut the map in 2 sides and give you constant LOS just makes it impossible to win. Not even mentioning the insane eco boost AND the positional advantage they give you by being mini outposts at the same time. You can argue if its the card that is broken or the amount of tps on the map. Imo its a probalem with the number of tps per map but ive expressed my opinion countless of times and nothing happened so w.e.

The brit vs russia I think i played better. It slightly russia favoured probably ( imo the mu is so close that its hard to tell. ) He also didnt play it very well imo. The fact that i killed his explorer was pretty significant imo. Bad stable and outpost placement were the result of it .

The india vs russia game. Well again, he was so tilted I could have just mirrored his india and won. When he lost his monks to the guardians it was over. I didnt want to play this mu actually. Imo russia>india except if h2o plays india because then its suddenly india favoured :). Just another way of saying perfect russia play< perfect india play.

i'm no expert but i have my own idea too:
game 1: a consulate rush could be gurkha+sowar+redcoat, instead of sepoy+sowar+redcoat.
game 2: maybe ff and kill tp, build tp? anyway, german has a short time of advantage in the early age 3.
game 3: h2o send 5v first which is a huge mistake imo. and yeah, forward stable is awkward.
game 4: both of you didn't send 3 jaguar from big button. 3 jaguar can tank a lot of damage, and can kill 12 puma quite easily. if you send them you could won easier (h2o doesnt even has 10 mace).

[Dsy]

But even if he wanna click on 5:10 then he cant build tp.
And even if he clicks 5:10 im not sure 4 huss can save his life.
Btw H2o had bad deck, he had no rodeleros in colo...