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Jerom wrote:

__Uhlan__ wrote:

Jerom wrote:Well, do some research about me maybe. I don't really care for petty skill arguments. I just thought you were really 2500 elo and then tried to say that I'd have guessed you were not. So apperantly I'd have guessed that one correctly then, but there would also be cases where I'd guess incorrectly. I think almost every elo needs adjusting at this point. I suppose you could say hey it might be more fair to determine the top32 seeds by elo and then randomly mix those for a random bracket I guess?

Guess incorrectly? Let's be real there are about 32 or so real players that are pr35+ and that's being generous,(I'm only talking about current active players) in fact I'd say there are about only 8-10 top tier players snowww, prince, mitoe, bsop, raplh h20 etc, 10-15 high level but mid high level around, sompuu, tit, solider etc. and then there's lt col-low colonel...and it's not like if every player in this community who has been around for some time doesn't know every top player in this community. But mixing the top 32 seems like a better solution to me also yes. Elo should be the base but other mu's should be commone sense. Like mitoe and prince of Kabul play each other so early, and before the brakets I would of placed both of them in the semi finals from my personal point of view that's all I'm saying. Mitoe had a lower elo then me going into the seeding but I know for 100% he is a far better aoe3 player then me.

tbf theres not really much that warrants this credit towards mitoe atm. For all I know, somppu > mitoe in a tournament setting.

well one could say that yes...but I think it's pretty evenident that was a upset series no? Ok well then your being bias...mitoe is for sure top 10 player in the game currently and that's sort of downgrading him. You mention the sompuu series but IIRC he took 3 or 2 games off h20 in a series in mirrors so by that logic sompuu > h20.

Well see theres the big subjective side to it. I'm not sure if mitoe would be 2500 or 2400 or 2600 honestly. Or 2300? It all seems vaguely reasonable. You think he's a top 10 player, I'm not sure. It was an upset that somppu beat him but I think somppu did actually outplay in that series.

You need an objective method of seeding even if the results are more subjective than a purely subjective method of seeding because a purely subjective method of seeding is inherently subjective.

deleted_user wrote:You need an objective method of seeding even if the results are more subjective than a purely subjective method of seeding because a purely subjective method of seeding is inherently subjective.

As much as this sound silly I guess its kinda true. We say in advance, its going to be elo based. Then people can't really complain when they end up having 2300 elo. It's unavoidable. If we're going to make brackets based on feeling that might just end up getting people angry. For example I think many would incorrectly underrate somppu, or maybe overrate some other players.

Jerom wrote:Well see theres the big subjective side to it. I'm not sure if mitoe would be 2500 or 2400 or 2600 honestly. Or 2300? It all seems vaguely reasonable. You think he's a top 10 player, I'm not sure. It was an upset that somppu beat him but I think somppu did actually outplay in that series.

To win you generally have to outplay lol, anyways when's the last time sompuu played port at a high level? He did during that tourney game and never again? Makes me wonder. but that's off topic anyways, I can't really think of 9 players 100% better then him I certainly put him in the top 10.

Jerom wrote:

deleted_user wrote:You need an objective method of seeding even if the results are more subjective than a purely subjective method of seeding because a purely subjective method of seeding is inherently subjective.

As much as this sound silly I guess its kinda true. We say in advance, its going to be elo based. Then people can't really complain when they end up having 2300 elo. It's unavoidable. If we're going to make brackets based on feeling that might just end up getting people angry. For example I think many would incorrectly underrate somppu, or maybe overrate some other players.

I see the bias factor and I get that but surely 100% elo based seeding is just wrong and bad.

I mean we can argue about the specific cases and part of me is surely a tiny bit sad about these brackets (especially because im going to upset against marco and then against goodspeed and then contribute to lordraphael's free run) but other times around the brackets were really great actually and it worked out really well in an fair and non subjective way. I think this one is about as unlucky as it gets, with the overranked high elo people all randomly getting in the top side of the bracket while the underranked low elo guys randomly ended up in the bottom side of the bracket.

I wonder if there doesn't exist a solution to formulate several different brackets all based on a combined ELO + PR stat, with different iterations giving varying importance to the two attributes, in such a way that you have several different brackets all determined objectively then the staff can subjectively choose the most fair? But even then you will have accusations of staff rigging the bracket, etc. Idk.

Was Elo the deciding in splitting players in two brackets halves? If so, then perhaps it'd be nice to check them after seeding to see if everything seems balanced, because as of right now it's quite clear the top side consists of more theoretically less-skilled players on average.

pecelot wrote:Was Elo the deciding in splitting players in two brackets halves? If so, then perhaps it'd be nice to check them after seeding to see if everything seems balanced, because as of right now it's quite clear the top side consists of more theoretically less-skilled players on average.

Thanks for the silent flaming.

@__Uhlan__ stop worrying about Hazza because I will bash you in the RO64 just like I did in the Diplomunion Tournament...ah wait...nevermind

On a serious note. There is no way around ELO seeding. PR is much worse and if the staff or any other committee were to seed the players based on opinion there would be a ton of people complaining and I could not blame them. And how would somebody like a AdrianCarrot be seeded? how do you seed a Goodspeed or Goongoon who only show up for the tournies? The only other option would be max ELO but then old players would be preferred as back then you were able to reach higher ELO than today. So while I agree that the current bracket seems unbalanced there is sadly no objective and fair around it.
(Btw the big favourites Blackstar and Raphael will still meet in the finals in the current bracket and names like snowww and Mitoe would only run into Blackstar in the semis)

I heard that hazza guy is scary

WickedCossack wrote:

Jerom wrote:

lordraphael wrote:ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers

Dont even think hazzas elo is that low though. Seems to represent his skill at least somewhat decently.

Bit harsh. I think 2.5k is achievable if hazzy played some more games on elo.

def infact i first wanted to write that but then i decided to not give a number so no one gets upset .)

btw i see a lot of useless discussions going on here. Im not sure if you guys know all the facts about how seeding is being done , not sure if i know it either but from what ryan has said it works like this : Tournament results count over elo seeds. So basically the top 8 from last tourney were the top seeds and then we have the top elo seeds. The problem is that not everyone from last toujrney signed up again ( mongo irish h2o etc ) resulting in majorly flawed seeds from the last tourney which is the main reason why the 2 brackets are so imbalanced.

For example last tourney btoh the finalists signed up resulting in a much better tourney seeding already . However the one bracket with the last tourney winner ( H2o ) was still easier than my bracket. At least i thought that my side of the bracket was harder than h2o last tourney.

Its normal that the tourney winners bracket is a bit easier than the other bracket.
anyways just my 2 cents. The system works best if players sign up continuosly it is a bit flawed if each tourney other players sign up.

maybe ryan can explain it more detailed-

I can promise you if we told people we are making brackets for the next tournament based on what we feel people's skill level is, that would upset people a lot more than the ELO does.

It also just is not fair or ethical. It allows for personal bias to seep into the brackets. It's also just not fair. I personally think acergame was very lucky to reach the finals. I'm almost positive it wouldn't happen again. But if he did sign up he has earned his preseeded spot. It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks, he proved it both in ELO and in tournament results.

There are some extreme examples of ELO manipulation, but we do Watchout for those. Plus you are only hurting yourself by changing your ELO. It is messing with your chances to get the most fair matchups for you.

As for unfair brackets top vs bottom half, I've been on the receiving end of a lot of hard brackets. I will say it feels bad, but also in some ways helps you prepare for the finals if you are that level of player. My spring tournament bracket was quite hard, the wcg one was literally the worst it could have been.

Yeah thats why somppu is seeded rather favorably despite his atrocious elo.

I remember that WCG bracket. Well it wasn't even the bracket, it was the group stage BEFORE the bracket that was screwed up. 4 man group with NaturePhoenix, iamgrunt and h20 where only 2 could get through.

WickedCossack wrote:I remember that WCG bracket. Well it wasn't even the bracket, it was the group stage BEFORE the bracket that was screwed up. 4 man group with NaturePhoenix, iamgrunt and h20 where only 2 could get through.

ez

What a cluster fuck of a tournament for a 10k prize pool.

deleted_user wrote:What a cluster fuck of a tournament for a 10k prize pool.

collen how did you wsin vs GUA , ithought he only plays major +++ ?

lordraphael wrote:

deleted_user wrote:What a cluster fuck of a tournament for a 10k prize pool.

collen how did you wsin vs GUA , ithought he only plays major +++ ?

Believe it or not I was once a major. Oh yes, laddy... those were the days! Back when your old pops used to have decent apm and the egirls would throw themselves at his large ELO! Ahhh...

So much abuse from the jerimuno

Hazza54321 wrote:So much abuse from the jerimuno

You should be careful there since there's actually a dude on ESO called Jerimuno who is actually quite chill.

I think that's the joke

WickedCossack wrote:

Hazza54321 wrote:So much abuse from the jerimuno

You should be careful there since there's actually a dude on ESO called Jerimuno who is actually quite chill.

That hurt my feelings.