Kaiserklein vs Tedere12

[Kaiserklein]

[spoiler=Result]3-1 for Kaiserklein[/spoiler]
We forgot to record the first game so I put a (not so) random rec instead. But it was streamed here from my point of view. Thought rods op. Ggs

[Hazza54321]

Lol u lost a game haha tls gonna shiprek you

[Kaiserklein]

I only lost because rods didn't have nilla stats :O

[deleted_user0]

rofl kaiser winning last fight with 30 of his 50 uhlans tripping on LSD in the back. Germans so balanced!

[Kaiserklein]

Doesn't matter if brits don't make goons vs germany. Lb pike won't beat dop cav anyway. Also he had similar eco to mine despite being brits, and at this fight I had a really good timing. I'll never understand lb pike in age 3 anyway it's garbage in most matchups imo

[britishmusketeer]

Doesn't matter if brits don't make goons vs germany. Lb pike won't beat dop cav anyway. Also he had similar eco to mine despite being brits, and at this fight I had a really good timing. I'll never understand lb pike in age 3 anyway it's garbage in most matchups imo

What would you make instead?

[Kaiserklein]

lb goon huss usually best composition i think, then against pure dop cav you sohuld go pure goon but for that you need to scout it

[pecelot]

I only lost because rods didn't have nilla stats :O

The problem is rods with good siege attack and speed would be kinda lame because you would be able to run around the map and siege stuff. Your opponent won't be able to catch you with cav since rods shit on cav obviously, and his other units will be too slow to catch you.
Maybe we could give them 15 siege though, because 10 is really low, but 20 seems too high.

Rods are decent units btw, I always see everyone say they suck ass but honestly they're pretty fine. They do their job against cav, can give goons a hard time, and can also catch small groups of infantry. You'll never be able to catch 5 skirms with 10 musks if the skirms are at 20 range from musks, but 10 rods can do that job

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=7338#p165752

[tedere12]

I started making musk in transition because I knew kaiser was gonna dopp uhlan in age 3 (I saw him doing that in some games vs diarouga), but then I saw that he had no 5 dopp in deck so I guessed he did skirm uhlan and he shipped 1k coin to ship br after that so I made pike because imo they do better job than musk vs uhlan.

[Kaiserklein]

Haha it's actually funny because I forgot to take the dops deck so I didn't have the 5 dops shipment... Either way I think you should always go cav heavy vs ger, to abuse their poor anti cav and lack of mobility. Huss to block the uhlan mass, goons to dps the low hp uhlans and catch the raid/raid yourself. Then you really only need lbs to snipe the wws and brs, really.
Why are pikes better than musks against cav ? They basically have only 2 perks, its their speed and their cover mode. But they cost the same like musks in terms of VS (even slightly more expensive if you have steel traps lol), also need to be upgraded to veteran, don't have a range attack, less hp and resist, same dps against cav as melee musks, less dps against other units, no cards from homecity.

@pecelot I don't see your point

[pecelot]

I don't see how you don't see the point.

Musks have to be upgraded to veteran, too

[Kickass_OP]

[spoiler=Result]3-1 for Kaiserklein[/spoiler]
We forgot to record the first game so I put a (not so) random rec instead. But it was streamed here from my point of view. Thought rods op. Ggs

Tedere> kaisersucks

[Kaiserklein]

I don't see how you don't see the point.

Well I'm pretty sure you're wrong because you misunderstood what I said, but I prefer saying that I didn't get your point.

Musks have to be upgraded to veteran, too

hence the "also"

[pecelot]

That „also" could be understood in a different way, hence my confusion

[Gendarme]

Yeah. It's weird mentioning things they have in common when trying to explain why they are worse. I AGREE WITH PECELOT.

[Kaiserklein]

No I'm just comparing every point that can be compared for those units, and showing that musketeers always show some advantages or are at least equal to pikes for every of those points, except cover mode and speed.

[deleted_user0]

Its not really the unit stats itself that make you want to train pikes sometimes its the synergy with the build and unit combo as well as that sometimes you want to preserve coin and dump all the coin you have into huss or arty.

Pike have the perk that theyre faster than musk, both training and movement speed. Making them the better choice vs raids. Then when you reach fortress you should already have a few of them. At that point you might prefer to make more pike because the unit you will most likely need to add will cost alot of coin (huss or arty). Later you might want to make them cuz ur out of coin. But ye the preferred combo for brits is lb goon with arty or huss added sometimes. But thats not always possible.

[Kaiserklein]

Its not really the unit stats itself that make you want to train pikes sometimes its the synergy with the build and unit combo as well as that sometimes you want to preserve coin and dump all the coin you have into huss or arty.

It's true that costing wood is a perk for lategame, but tbh on esoc maps you most of the time have enough gold available, and brits aren't a civ that needs so much gold anyway. In most games you don't even reach the point where there is no more gold left on the map. And tbh you already need mapcontrol for hunts, so at this point controlling the gold isn't so important, since you'll anyway run out of food before that. And musks don't cost much gold, I really don't see the problem there.

Pike have the perk that theyre faster than musk, both training and movement speed. Making them the better choice vs raids.

I disagree. Musks having a range imo compensates for being a bit slower. How often are you going to catch a raid with pikes against a good player ? Basically never. How often will you have your musketeers shoot a volley at the raiding cav against a good player ? Well, much more often. And once in fortress, goons are anyway much better than pikes at defending raids. And if you come to fight a raid with your anti-cav, musks in melee mode are just a better anti cav than pikes.
And about the training time, pikes need 27 seconds compared to 30 seconds for musks, it's not a big deal.

Then when you reach fortress you should already have a few of them. At that point you might prefer to make more pike because the unit you will most likely need to add will cost alot of coin (huss or arty). Later you might want to make them cuz ur out of coin. But ye the preferred combo for brits is lb goon with arty or huss added sometimes. But thats not always possible.

Well here again, I don't think gold is the limiting factor for brits, imo it's food, so it doesn't really matter. And in late game yes, I agree you can switch to pikes, to avoid going on plantations/to keep your gold for other units, but again most games don't reach that point. And yeah going 3 units composition after a slow age up isn't easy, so you can't always do that I agree, but against germany I'd rather prioritize goons over lb anyway. They also don't need to be upgraded to veteran, which makes it handy in early fortress.

[momuuu]

Against dopp uhlan a decent musk mass is very nice though.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, but so is a decent goon mass, and they will also let you catch raids more easily. And goons are better if germany makes skirms, which it usually makes, so it's imo a safer pick.

[pecelot]

I disagree. Musks having a range imo compensates for being a bit slower. How often are you going to catch a raid with pikes against a good player ? Basically never. How often will you have your musketeers shoot a volley at the raiding cav against a good player ? Well, much more often. And once in fortress, goons are anyway much better than pikes at defending raids. And if you come to fight a raid with your anti-cav, musks in melee mode are just a better anti cav than pikes.

I think speed and melee animation are crucial here. Despite you may not catch raids with pikes, you certainly won't with musks. It may not be about killing the cav, but deterring them from engaging. Musks range damage is not that great vs cavalry, you will only get like one volley whose damage will be reduced by cav's RR. Moreover, when you manage to catch a raid, pikes snare a lot better due to the aforementioned speed than musks.

[Kaiserklein]

I think speed and melee animation are crucial here.Despite you may not catch raids with pikes, you certainly won't with musks. It may not be about killing the cav, but deterring them from engaging. Musks range damage is not that great vs cavalry, you will only get like one volley whose damage will be reduced by cav's RR. Moreover, when you manage to catch a raid, pikes snare a lot better due to the aforementioned speed than musks.

What about the melee animation ? It's as long for pikes as it is for musks. And as I said the range gives you much more chances to dps the cav than a mere melee attack.
Against a good player, you won't catch raids with infantry, be it pikes or musks. Musks deter cav from engaging more than pikes do, since musks in melee mode are a better anti cav. Range damage is not great but it's better than nothing, and if you lock the fire (so that your musks still shoot even if the cav goes out of range but stays in your LOS) properly after your first shot on the cav, you will most likely be able to shoot 2 volleys at the cav, unless your opponent has a top level reaction time. And again, you shouldn't catch a raid.

Anyway, if pikes are that good, why we don't see people making pikes as france or ports, to defend the raids ? Why so many people go musks semi as france vs ger, and not pike semi ?

[pecelot]

Musks have to switch into melee and it takes them some time (add to that your APM), while pikes attack immediately. Here's how I see it: you can either come to your endangered vills more slowly, fire one volley and deter the cav, or catch the raid more quickly and have a higher chance of snaring the cav to then deal serious damage. Against uhlans I'd prefer pikes in such circumstances, since uhlans can quickly deal with musks who have that awkward animation.
To answer your questions: most likely because pikes cost wood. When I do water stuff as Ports and see my opponent starting with a stable, I make pikes. Also, it's British we're talking about here

[Kaiserklein]

With good micro the time to switch to melee is really small. And if you place them correctly + turtle nicely, your musks shouldn't have to move too much to catch the raids. And then the range just lets them dps the cav while pikes will just run and do nothing.
You're completely wrong about uhlan vs pikes and musks. Uhlans kill pikes in 4 hits and musks in 6 hits, and both pikes and musks need 5 hits to kill a uhlan, so obviously musks are just better against uhlans, regardless of the animation.
Pikes cost wood, so what ? If pikes were so good, it would be worth training them against germany as france for example. Why people go musks semi on a tp map to take control of the tp line, instead of pikes semi, even tho pikes are faster and siege tps better ? Maybe because pikes simply suck ass. If they were good you would just use wood crates to mass them while doing a semi. Being brits doesn't change anything to that, you anyway have only the tier 1 wood upgrades which costs basically nothing, any civ can do that. It's just a kind of weird culture of the "lb pikes", while lb musks is simply superior.

[tedere12]

I guess it makes sence, musks are better, for some reason I feel like musks restart their animation often which isnt true probably.