Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

France Kaiserklein
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Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

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Post by Kaiserklein »

[spoiler=Result]4-2 for Kaiserklein[/spoiler]

Ggs. Otto bad civ buff more
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[EP3-1 SP] Kaiserklein[GE] vs Knuschelbär[PT] - ESOC Mendocino.age3yrec
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[EP3-1 SP] Kaiserklein[OT] vs Knuschelbär[GE] - ESOC Herald Island.age3yrec
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[EP3-1 SP] Kaiserklein[GE] vs Knuschelbär[FR] - ESOC Manchuria.age3yrec
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[EP3-1 SP] Kaiserklein[RU] vs Knuschelbär[DU] - ESOC Thar Desert.age3yrec
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

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Well played both!
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by P i k i l i c »

Grens hype :love:
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:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by musketeer925 »

Thanks for submitting recs :mrgreen:
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

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Post by deleted_user »

for those Who wants to see what did happen,

look at here. ;)



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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

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Post by look »

Kaiserklein wrote:[spoiler=Result]4-2 for Kaiserklein[/spoiler]

Ggs. Otto bad civ buff more


very bad.. :/
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

Knush played totally wrong vs otto 2x. Says little about how good otto as a civ is except that most ppl cant play them and thus dont know what to expect when vs them. That said kaiser did a good job, specially in the ger otto game, by going heavy on the huss, which is exactly how otto wins that mu.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:Knush played totally wrong vs otto 2x. Says little about how good otto as a civ is except that most ppl cant play them and thus dont know what to expect when vs them. That said kaiser did a good job, specially in the ger otto game, by going heavy on the huss, which is exactly how otto wins that mu.
what would you do as German vs otto? Surely not 3 sw first......
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Hazza54321 »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:Knush played totally wrong vs otto 2x. Says little about how good otto as a civ is except that most ppl cant play them and thus dont know what to expect when vs them. That said kaiser did a good job, specially in the ger otto game, by going heavy on the huss, which is exactly how otto wins that mu.
what would you do as German vs otto? Surely not 3 sw first......

700g straight ff
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by gibson »

Hazza54321 wrote:
gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:Knush played totally wrong vs otto 2x. Says little about how good otto as a civ is except that most ppl cant play them and thus dont know what to expect when vs them. That said kaiser did a good job, specially in the ger otto game, by going heavy on the huss, which is exactly how otto wins that mu.
what would you do as German vs otto? Surely not 3 sw first......

700g straight ff
but than you have no eco no infrastructure and otto has uncontested 3tp stagecoach
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Hazza54321 »

U have a stable, and otto cant deal with ww early fort, u still have hunting dogs and placer mines @gibson
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Hazza54321 wrote:U have a stable, and otto cant deal with ww early fort, u still have hunting dogs and placer mines @gibson


Jan's do just fine v ww imo
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by fei123456 »

You can train a bit more xbow pike AND DON'T fight outside the base, being killed easily.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:Knush played totally wrong vs otto 2x. Says little about how good otto as a civ is except that most ppl cant play them and thus dont know what to expect when vs them. That said kaiser did a good job, specially in the ger otto game, by going heavy on the huss, which is exactly how otto wins that mu.
what would you do as German vs otto? Surely not 3 sw first......


Im talking about him losing all his infantry outside of his base. If you open 8 bow you gotta stay in your tc range.

Germany with a tp start can get away with a straight ff. They can build a tower in base or send the tc card after 700c. 8 bow isnt best vs the jan huss, but if you can get res for mm, that timed with 3 doppel pop can also hold va jan huss if you straight ff. 3sw doppels with 8 bow works vs that strat kaiser did and double rax bow rush with 700w 8 bow probably does as well.

Knusch also mishandled the early fortress. actually in that situation, the best choice wouldve been 5 dopps on the cav popped from tc and how many other ww or skir you couldve trained.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Kaiserklein »

Vs this kind of otto rush I'd open 8 bows and start pikes and stay safe in base. More bows while sending 3 sw, transition to coin with 700w and add a stable for some dop cav, 700g for mass, then push with 3 dops. Its a way to play it imo, timing push in colo. Just need to go heavy enough on dops to be safe, remember jans have low dps and wont snipe dops that fast, and otto wont be able to mix that many abus so fast, with jan huss start.

Other way to play it would be to hold with a kind of infantry semi and then go heavy on ww or br in age 3. Can do same build and age up from 700g, or can try to start dops with 3 sw and use the mm threat to hold. Or just hope for a good units shipment + mm pop to clean up and age up safely, but then otto has to overcommit.

Either way it's funny how people used to say that ger is OP and otto trash, and after I win it it's "otto lame what can ger do in this mu??"
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Garja »

If otto go for 700g 700w 700f and add a 2nd rax, this is very forcing for Ger. It's the same French can do except it's faster and you have abus just in case for later.
In this game Kaiser overdid with huss (no 2nd rax) and knuschelbar has a chance with the first 3 ww.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

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Kaiserklein wrote:Vs this kind of otto rush I'd open 8 bows and start pikes and stay safe in base. More bows while sending 3 sw, transition to coin with 700w and add a stable for some dop cav, 700g for mass, then push with 3 dops. Its a way to play it imo, timing push in colo. Just need to go heavy enough on dops to be safe, remember jans have low dps and wont snipe dops that fast, and otto wont be able to mix that many abus so fast, with jan huss start.

Other way to play it would be to hold with a kind of infantry semi and then go heavy on ww or br in age 3. Can do same build and age up from 700g, or can try to start dops with 3 sw and use the mm threat to hold. Or just hope for a good units shipment + mm pop to clean up and age up safely, but then otto has to overcommit.

Either way it's funny how people used to say that ger is OP and otto trash, and after I win it it's "otto lame what can ger do in this mu??"


Who is saying that? I guess ppl that cant play otto... This was never a bad mu for otto tbh
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:If otto go for 700g 700w 700f and add a 2nd rax, this is very forcing for Ger. It's the same French can do except it's faster and you have abus just in case for later.
In this game Kaiser overdid with huss (no 2nd rax) and knuschelbar has a chance with the first 3 ww.


I disagree tbh. Heavy on huss is good imo. Realistically nobody will have 5 dops in deck and paradoxically if u outmass its probably better to have huss vs ww than jans, cause of speed.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Hazza54321 »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:U have a stable, and otto cant deal with ww early fort, u still have hunting dogs and placer mines @gibson


Jan's do just fine v ww imo

Nah lol, u kite forever
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

Can add abus by that time already though
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

There is also the otto cav archer ff fast 2 cans. Epic strat tbh. Most ppl dunno how to beat it :p
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Garja »

umeu wrote:
Garja wrote:If otto go for 700g 700w 700f and add a 2nd rax, this is very forcing for Ger. It's the same French can do except it's faster and you have abus just in case for later.
In this game Kaiser overdid with huss (no 2nd rax) and knuschelbar has a chance with the first 3 ww.


I disagree tbh. Heavy on huss is good imo. Realistically nobody will have 5 dops in deck and paradoxically if u outmass its probably better to have huss vs ww than jans, cause of speed.

Too many huss will just path badly ending up in basically same amount of pop of huss and WW meeling each other. WW in melee and you trade decently. Bear in mind you need to win the battle decisively and with enough units of both types left otherwise German next shipment is going to counter what's left. Also a good point has been raised during stream which was that Knusch could have sent BR (he had like 400g 400f while aging with scattered hunts). BR more than WW is the reason why you want many infantry units. And since abus switch is not convinent at that point you just add 2nd rax which should also do fine vs skirms as long as you have some huss left.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by deleted_user0 »

Yeah br wouldve been deadly, but tbh it wasnt realistic in that position. Fast br is strong though vs otto. I dont see why adding abus is inconvenient tho. Ship 600w and set tps to coin or other way around and ur set.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Garja »

Because u need to spend 300w on another building and they cost more pop. Plus they lose to ulhans that Germans will have from every shipment.
Since you're leading there is no reason why you want to switch to a different unit type. It's up to the opponent to counter your mass.
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Re: Kaiserklein vs Knuschelbär

Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

Garja wrote:Because u need to spend 300w on another building and they (abus) cost more pop. Plus they lose to ulhans that Germans will have from every shipment.

You got TPS, he had 3 around that time when he switched. He had enough hus and jan to block the uhlan (which were not vet for a long time as well, due to the pressure) so imo abus in the back could effectively deal with WWs as Kaiser also microed them pretty well.

Garja wrote:Since you're leading there is no reason why you want to switch to a different unit type. It's up to the opponent to counter your mass.

I dont think that is true in all cases. There is also the anticipation move here. If you go full jan hus, your opponent is likely to counter it and would be fine with a lot of WWs. If you anticipate this, and get your abus on time, or at least some and/or infrastructure ready to mass more if needed, you are a step ahead and will better counter your opponents army. This is exactly what Kaiser did here.
I am pretty sure Kaiser, with the position he was in, just wanted to make sure he would be ready for the one thing he could possibly lose to (mass ww and br).
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