Free Will

[_venox_]

What is your opinion about free will? Do we have it? Is it all determined? If you had all the data and knowledge and processing power in the universe, is there just one possible future?

What is free will: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
Are we powerless and have no influence on our future? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism
Is the future already decided/known in advance (by god, fate or something else?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predeterminism
Is every event in the universe (past, present and future) caused by conditions that couldn't have caused any other action instead? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
Or do you think that free will and determinism are compatible ideas? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism

Youtube links:
Problems of free will: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSfXdNIolQA
Free will is an illusion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
Quantum physics perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNZQVyabiM

How should we view society regarding our opinion about wether or not free will exists?
Is a mass murderer really responsible for his actions if the conditions under which he acted couldn't have caused otherwise?
Are there any random events?
Does the knowledge about the determination of the future pose another variable which could alter said future, thus making it a loop?

Ready? Go!

[WickedCossack]

Either way it's a very interesting topic. I just had a look back at the logs from yesterday marco, 2hrs on just this apparently.

But yea free will is just an illusion, a superb one, but still an illusion. I'm in the determinism camp, there's nothing random in this universe. If any event appears random it's only because we're not smart enough right now to understand the underlying causes for that action.

[Mr. Pecksniff]

In a deterministic universe there can be no free will, however this does not release us from moral responsibility.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Mr. Pecksniff]

i''m too stupid to thin k about these sorts of things

Don''t worry, it''s not your fault.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Mr. Griggles]

Griggle confusion, freewill's an illusion? Do ye shiver, if life is a river? You can still paddle.

[Goodspeed]

In a deterministic universe there can be no free will, however this does not release us from moral responsibility.

This and only this

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[_venox_]

I watched the Harris talk and now understand a bit better your point Adam, I also think now that the conditions for an event can only cause that event and therefore it gives you a nearly inseparable chain of events. "All happens because it is bound to happen." Even though there might not be any random events at all (maybe there are in quantum physics) we still live in an universe where there are too many things appearing random, too many things not being able to be calculated through. Now I don't quite get why we should act as though it's all determined even though there is so much randomness still. Also quantum physics forbids that one knows the place AND direction/speed of an atom precisely. So this might me the random factor we looked for. I might be on the "compatibilism" side, meaning that yes "All happens because it is bound to happen." (=determined), but having no free will is a scary thing to know. This might give a new argument for criminals to be irresponsible for their actions, since if anybody else was living under the conditions they live under they'd have done the absolute exact same. This also means that we need to add other priorities like "safety", to then still put these criminals in prison if not for the reason of responsibility.

[Goodspeed]

even though there is so much randomness still

How is it that you keep agreeing with us about determinism and then randomly changing your mind 2 sentences later?

[_venox_]

Since we don't know all the data, nor have the processing power, nor know about all the laws of the universe we can't predict the future, therefore we have to assume things as being random. We can't base our actions on determined events when we have to still take randomness into consideration.

[Goodspeed]

Yes but that doesn't mean randomness exists. It just means we don't understand something well enough yet to predict it. Quantum mechanics are a perfect example, it seems random to us now but in due time, as we start figuring it out, it will become predictable like everything else. Yes we have to treat some things as random because we have no way to predict them, but that doesn't mean they are random.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[WickedCossack]

In a deterministic universe there can be no free will, however this does not release us from moral responsibility.

I think in a deterministic universe you would be absolved of moral responsibility actually.

I''ll give you my argument that I told GS and venox yesterday. I like to think of a deterministic universe as chains of dominos falling over. Each action has a consequence that is the same no matter how many times you play it over, which would be knocking the next domino over.

Now one of these dominos happens to represent a guy shooting and killing someone else. The domino is going to fall over and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it in a deterministic universe. Why are you morally responsible for something that you can do absolutely nothing about ? The domino is set up to fall. Why is it their fault that previous domino crashes into them ?

I could replace you with the murderer atom by atom, and give you the exact same life experiences as the murderer. In a deterministic universe you would do the exact same thing as they did. That defeats the whole concept of moral responsibility. By saying that someone is morally responsible you''re essenitally saying that you''d have done something different or could''ve done something different and therefore this guy is fully responsible for what they did. But you couldn''t do anything different in a deterministic universe, it''s impossible.

Don''t blame a random domino.

[Goodspeed]

In a deterministic universe there can be no free will, however this does not release us from moral responsibility.

I think in a deterministic universe you would be absolved of moral responsibility actually.

Ill give you my argument that I told GS and venox yesterday. I like to think of a deterministic universe as chains of dominos falling over. Each action has a consequence that is the same no matter how many times you play it over, which would be knocking the next domino over.

Now one of these dominos happens to represent a guy shooting and killing someone else. The domino is going to fall over and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it in a deterministic universe. Why are you morally responsible for something that you can do absolutely nothing about ? The domino is set up to fall. Why is it their fault that previous domino crashes into them ?

I could replace you with the murderer atom by atom, and give you the exact same life experiences as the murderer. In a deterministic universe you would do the exact same thing as they did. That defeats the whole concept of moral responsibility. By saying that someone is morally responsible youre essenitally saying that youd have done something different or couldve done something different and therefore this guy is fully responsible for what they did. But you couldnt do anything different in a deterministic universe, its impossible.

Dont blame a random domino.

a random domino.

random

(:))

[WickedCossack]

The use of the word random is totally fine in that context. Da fudge you going inception mode about.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[WickedCossack]

Hah maybe it was a poor choice of word but I would've thought you guys were smart enough to not get hooked up on that. It doesn't detract from my argument. Back on topic you muppets.

[Goodspeed]

Basically that was me saying I've had enough of the topic. You know, since we spent an hour discussing it ')

[WickedCossack]

You're forgetting the stupid number of hours yesterday aswell.

[_venox_]

[quote="wickedcossack"][/quote]My view on this is that yes, if you''d replace the whole upgrowing and all the experiences with that of a murderer, we''d be murderer too. But my understanding of moral responsibility is that I myself wouldn''t have done the same. I am a different person than the murderer, he is one person and I am another. By putting me in the same shoes as the murderer you are destroying the concept of the individual, you now can''t differentiate anybody since you''re putting me in his exact place. It is still him/her that felt all the bad emotions, that planned the murder and bought a gun and pulled the trigger, not me. There has to be a way to differentiate me and the murderer to even be able to tell if the murderer or me is responsible or not.

Another thing is that the excuse of "my conditions were bad" can be applied to really anything, since one is not responsible but the conditions let them to, according to your statement. The knowledge about this excuse will get people to commit crime far more often of course since you can''t address any blame. Then a new principle is needed just to balance things out: Safety, for whose distortion you could be blamed now. Or could you?

As we see if people follow the deterministic universe belief things will get heated up and scary to handle. Is such a belief really worth anything?