The how does anything exist thread

Place open for new posts — threads with fresh content will be moved to either Real-life Discussion or ESOC Talk sub-forums, where you can create new topics.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:What exactly do you think you have proven? Youve swung towards the extreme view that education cannot influence future earnings, even though there arent any studies that support this.

Nobody has to be a financial genius. Unless the flow of information is incredibly distorted, theres no reason why people cant be expected to make good decisions for themselves. There are certainly examples of graduates who wouldve been better off not going to college, but if this was a reaction that most people experienced, then we wouldnt be seeing an increasing number of young people investing enormous sums of time and money into their education.
I have already discussed that in this and the other thread. (facepalm)



No, in the other thread you ignored the last post I made before the topic changed.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

metis wrote:People here seem to have an idea that a college education entails four years of Latin, philosophy and interpretative dance and that being a plumber requires no education whatever. This tells me that most of you have neither been to college nor have any professional certifications. I have done both.

A four-year degree doesn''t just entail classes in Latin, philosophy and interpretative dance. Most degree programs give you the theoretical background needed so that you won''t be totally lost when doing that much daunted OJT. Try to go get a job at Intel as an electrical engineer and just learn it via OJT without four years of mathematics, physics, electrical and circuit theory and see how far you get.

Also, many here seem to think that jobs like plumbing require no education. In order to be certified as a journeyman plumber you usually will need to attend 250 classroom hours and perform 2000 supervised hands-on experience hours a year for four to five years then pass a certification exam before you can be licensed by the state.

I''ve not been through a plumbing course but I have a professional certification and state license in emergency medicine so can tell you what it entails. Regardless of the fact that I was an Army medic who had served for six years, to become a Mobile Intensive Care Technician I first had to be become certified as an EMT, which entails?a five-credit-hour college lab course and state practical certification, and then work full-time as an EMT for a year. Only then could I be admitted into the?two-year AAS course in mobile intensive care technology. In addition to the college coursework in anatomy, physiology and medicine, I also had to?work a year of rotations at a hospital and then 6-months supervised OJT as a paramedic before I could?sit for two days of state medical board written and practical tests to become licensed. After that I had to take 30 contact hours of recertification courses every year.



Judging from dragons posts, I think he generally approves of education. He just doesn''t like it when people study arts or humanities degrees.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by iNcog »

-- deleted post --

Reason: on request (off-topic bulk delete)
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
France benj89
Howdah
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mar 11, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by benj89 »

incog wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:>'dislikes hollande
>'supports obama

To be fair though, Obama would be right-wing if he was running in a country like France.
You must not realize whats wrong with Hollande if youre going to say that sort of shit

Hollande and his clique deserve prison

hes just a puppet tho, but I kinda agree
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:No, in the other thread you ignored the last post I made before the topic changed.
Im certain I had the last word in that welfare discussion. :sleeping:



pls no bully

frycookofdoom wrote:
WTF are you talking about?
One persons rights infringes another persons liberty. You cant embrace a system of rights without compromising on liberty. Come on man, this is political science 101.

That is wishful thinking. Studies have shown that those graduating from college perform poorly on a large number of intellectual metrics and employers consider them wholly unprepared for the job market, unless you think learning about Ches leadership qualities is meaningful.

www.nationalreview.com/agenda/387184/re ... ihan-salam

www.aacu.org/press/press-releases/2015e ... entsurveys
Im not surprised by those findings, after all I never even said that college actually made people smarter or prepared them for their careers. Ive already made my point regarding what colleges help to reveal about a students abilities and motivation, Im not going to repeat myself again. Its up to you to address me directly on that.?

Unless you are in a field that specially requires extensive higher education, such as medicine, there is no need to get a college degree. There are numerous ways to make a living that dont require any postsecondary education, just as there is a very large number of college graduates who are unemployed or underemployed. Itd be very easy for me to list thousands of people who became successful or millionaires without going to college. Placing your faith in the belief that college education automatically translates to higher earnings than "lower" education has no basis in reality.
Well of course theres no need for a college degree for most people, what were talking about is whether having a degree pays off. Im aware that there are successful people who didnt go to college, just as there are also many successful people who did. Having a degree obviously wont spontaneously cause a heap of money to materialize in your lap, but when did I ever assert something to that effect?
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:What am I supposed to say in response to someone agreeing with me? I am the one that "won" the welfare discussion. I actually replied to that post, or at least the only part of it that was new and worthy of a response.


But you still haven''t explained why you think education has no impact on financial success. The whole point of my post was to stop you from sidestepping the issue.
No Flag musketjr
Lancer
Posts: 624
Joined: Mar 1, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by musketjr »

da fk happened to this thread?

i thought we were solving existence and shit
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

Dragon is too busy taking part in the riots in London.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13006
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Goodspeed »

If you're a talented and/or hard working person yeah, you can get a good salary doing unschooled work but nothing secures a high salary like a good education. Obviously, the majority of people doing unschooled work are getting paid very little.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13006
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Goodspeed »

musketjr wrote:da fk happened to this thread?

i thought we were solving existence and shit
My best answer: Everything exists and there is no such thing as nothing.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:But you still havent explained why you think education has no impact on financial success. The whole point of my post was to stop you from sidestepping the issue.?
If you want work as a carpet salesman, you will not need a college degree to get the job or a high salary. If you want work as a doctor, you will certainly need a college education to get the job and receive a high salary. Its pretty simple.



Youre right, you dont need a college degree for many jobs. It really is that simple. But Im talking about lifetime earnings and employability, not some persons desire to become a carpet salesman.
No Flag divine_moon
Dragoon
Posts: 331
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by divine_moon »

wow this discussion reached 15 pages? :D
United States of America Metis
Howdah
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Metis »

What kind of job that can be had with a college degree in Native American LGBT Study do you think can't be had with a highschool education?

I'm not sure that I've ever heard of that particular major but I get the gist of what you are saying. However, it's been my experience that college graduates oftentimes get jobs over non-educated applicants because employers recognize that to get a degree in [em]anything[/em] usually requires subject matter comprehension, communication skills (including paper writing), punctuality, regular attendance, and the ability to follow instructions -- all traits of the good employee.


Something similar goes for former servicemen. Many military MOS's ("job descriptions") have direct application in civilian live but others do not. However, even if you are a basic infantrymen, an employer will not discount military service altogether, given the discipline and leadership skills that nearly every soldier is instilled with. The difference in hiring may be only a few percent but it's there.


Of course, if the hypothetical person got a degree in Native American LGBT studies because they found that it was the easiest path to a degree and had little desire to apply themselves to anything other than partying and spending their parents' money, then a driven high school graduate with a "go getter" attitude would almost surely be equally if not more employable.


In my case, employability and experience were never much of an issue. However, I grew up in a time and place where kids and young adults had ample opportunity for any work they wanted to do. Dad was constantly fielding calls from farmers who knew that he had two boys and needed a few as farm hands. By the time I had graduated high school I had farmed for three summers, worked construction for another and also worked as a janitor and electronics shop helper after school. I farmed another summer and had another janitorial job in college before I went into the military. When I went back to college and looked for a job to supplement my GI Bill they just fell into my lap. I didn't even have to ask -- employers came to me. I've never applied for a job in my life. I find that if you are willing to actually work then you will have more job opportunities than you can handle.


For those who whine that they don't have experience, all I have to say is that you gain work experience by working. On one of the tech forums on which I post we have an educational and career section. Most of the technicians on the site are or have been in the IT field or other industries for twenty years or more. Their advice is almost always to get a job, any job, in order to gain work experience while pursuing certifications. Far too many young adults have an inflated sense of their own worth and a huge sense of self-entitlement that makes them think of that stock boy or clerk job as beneath them or not relevant to their career goals.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

Have you considered running for office even at a local level? Although I don't support the entirety of your worldview and policies you seem at least more independent and knowledgeable than the average elected official.


I'd wager that most people here are more knowledgable than the average elected US official.
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 632
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
ESO: ramex19

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

This has been a very interesting reading i have to say. Had to read through the full 15 pages.

and i definately had to LOL hard at muskets post :DDDDDDDDDD which makes for a good ending to go to sleep finally
[quote author="@musketjr"]da fk happened to this thread?

i thought we were solving existence and shit[/quote]
That said, my 2 cents (For Umeu > Dat sed, ma too sents or something ^^):

There have been some weird arguments unfortunately. Like
[quote author="@FryCookofDoom"][div][/div][div][/div][div][/div][div][/div][div][/div][div][/div][div][/div]
Unless the flow of information is incredibly distorted, there's no reason why people can't be expected to make good decisions for themselves. There are certainly examples of graduates who would've been better off not going to college, but if this was a reaction that most people experienced, then we wouldn't be seeing an increasing number of young people investing enormous sums of time and money into their education. [/quote]
Why people assume so much, based on 'common media' propaganda? I think you also underestimate peer pressure and how people tend to behave like sheeps to conform to what 'society' wants or dictates. It can still be the case that there are a lot of people who experience such issues, and yet still many others would (try to) go for the same thing. In fact, if im not mistaken, in the USA about 50% of the graduated dont get a job or a 'well-earning job on par with their college level' and are left with huge debts (another bubble?). The numbers are out there from several surveys and sources.

Then again, the question is also (correlation isnt causation ')) if that is due to the (semi)uselessness of college, because employers value other skills such as working experience more, because of the current bad economic circumstances or a combination of these.

I think its generally true (for now) that people with a college degree tend to get a job easier and in the end the jobs that pay more. I wouldnt be surprised if this changes to where 'real skills' matter more than mostly 'theoretical skills'. It feels that in current society there are more and more jobs (which graduated people get) where you sometimes just wonder what value they really add... (Not the best example but a fun side note' anyone heard of the fake business men in Asia, getting paid to pretend to be active in airports and train stations as to 'show' the economy is rolling ^^ Though i dont have a source now, i did notice something odd like this in Korea once, where there was like too much weirdness and suddenly busy when you look at them going on).

Anyway, the interesting question still remains, is it because of the degree and what they learned there, or because of what kind of person it is (rational as well as social intelligence social)? Sure, you get shaped in a certain way by going to college (which isnt always good) and learn certain skills such as problem solving and being more analytical (of course the degree in these depends on the kind of studies). But the question is then, could you also acquire these skills in other ways, for example work experience, with perhaps some extra courses here and there, rather than all these years in high school and university?

From my experience, and i do have a masters degree also, i cant even answer it with certainty. I do feel that ive learned a lot of good things. Though theory only gets you so far, the analytical skills were very valuable. But i also feel that we learn a lot of useless things. Or even worse, that things are in fact not the way they teach it to you, but thats another discussion. Which then again makes you wonder whether you shouldnt learn it in another way, rather than spending so many years via these 'traditional ways'.

To be honest, its hard to answer that, and right now, im not yet sure myself.
Age Of Empires 3 Videos - GamePlay, Commentary & Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/venividiviciw
Age Of Empires 3 Live Stream - http://www.twitch.tv/venividivici_w
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

weird arguments


u wot m8
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13006
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Goodspeed »

venividivici wrote: I wouldnt be surprised if this changes to where ''real skills'' matter more than mostly ''theoretical skills''.
I''d sooner argue the opposite, mostly because computers will take over the simpler jobs in due time. They already are in a lot of cases.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

calmyourtits wrote:
venividivici wrote:?I wouldnt be surprised if this changes to where real skills matter more than mostly theoretical skills.
Id sooner argue the opposite, mostly because computers will take over the simpler jobs in due time. They already are in a lot of cases.



So much this.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

The how does anything exist thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Legend, come teach english in asia, you can make the equivalent of a shitload of money here teaching english, and you only need a highschool diploma, though a degree works even better
No Flag musketjr
Lancer
Posts: 624
Joined: Mar 1, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by musketjr »

calmyourtits wrote:
musketjr wrote:da fk happened to this thread?

i thought we were solving existence and shit
My best answer: Everything exists and there is no such thing as nothing.
Im coming to the same conclusion. Heres what i said to umeu in pm

(on why ask this question)
and plus, even if its (currently) unanswerable in a total, satisfying way, you can still find interesting insights and perspectives on it. maybe the way itll be solved is by inching closer and closer.



that thought experiment i linked in youtube in my OP was actually a useful recent insight for me, on this. ive been aware of existence being a paradox for a long time but id always thought of the two equally impossible options for anything existing being temporal or eternal. given that it follows, logically, that you cant regress a first cause infinitely, we can almost rule out a temporal explanation? so we can say the universe, or something, must have existed forever. which, holy shit, makes no sense
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:Id wager that most people here are more knowledgable than the average elected US official.
$10,000?
doesnt work for me :/
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 632
Joined: Feb 12, 2015
ESO: ramex19

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Veni_Vidi_Vici_W »

calmyourtits wrote:
venividivici wrote: I wouldnt be surprised if this changes to where real skills matter more than mostly theoretical skills.
Id sooner argue the opposite, mostly because computers will take over the simpler jobs in due time. They already are in a lot of cases.
That sentence was linked to the one before. I probably should have elaborated more reading this again. With the just theory skills, i was more referring to say degrees in marketing, psychology, "general services and even investment banking these days. Studies in IT and engineering, though for sure not similar, are what i meant with real skills. Imo you do add more value to society with jobs in those areas.

Then again btw, the question is if you really need a 4 year study in IT, or that you can train and teach yourself + some courses + learning via work and colleagues.
Age Of Empires 3 Videos - GamePlay, Commentary & Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/venividiviciw
Age Of Empires 3 Live Stream - http://www.twitch.tv/venividivici_w
France benj89
Howdah
Posts: 1509
Joined: Mar 11, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by benj89 »

again, unless you show that you are exceptional (there are quiet a few way to do it especially in IT, but we can't generalize on that), high paying IT jobs require a degree. Otherwise, companies won't even look at your resume (unless you get paid 2 days to install office on their employees comp).
so there is very few to no conversation about it, yeah hs don't have any value nowadays, yeah college education doesn't teach you 100% of what you need after college, and in some case in teaches you less than 20%, but you can decide it while taking your major/minor, and simply that's how it is lol.
the issue isn't is it right or wrong, it's that nowadays everyone have a bachelor degree, and if you don't you will most likely be the last cv looked at in a stable and high paying job
"Prestige is like a powerful magnet that warps even your beliefs about what you enjoy. If you want to make ambitious people waste their time on errands, bait the hook with prestige." - Paul Graham
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13006
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Goodspeed »

@Veni IT is a very unique field though. A lot of people are growing up with it, even picking it up as a hobby. For those people it's easy to get into it without schooling, but education is always useful. If you want some of the better paid jobs in software development, a degree is necessary and if you get one you'll have companies lining up to have you. To be fair though, devs are so needed that even self taught programmers can find a job relatively easily. With experience the sky's the limit but the safest way to get a decent job in IT, as with any field, is education.
No Flag Mr. Pecksniff
Howdah
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mar 28, 2015

The how does anything exist thread

Post by Mr. Pecksniff »

drlegend wrote:
frycookofdoom wrote:doesnt work for me :/
http://www.isi.org/quiz.aspx

I keep running into an error on the final page of the quiz, it wont let me complete it.

Shame, I wouldve liked to know just how much I knew about the US.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV