Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by deleted_user0 »

Laurence Drake wrote:
iNcog wrote:I have a nobel prize in economics. DO I WIN THE THREAD /s

I have three ig nobel prize and a salaried position as visiting professor at Brookes College, Oxford.


i created the universe and the laws of it which you study...
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by yurashic »

Method_man714 wrote:Are you trying to excuse a genocide?


No, there was no genocide. Soviet purges were aimed at people who did not agree with the goverment policy, not about nationality or religion.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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Method_man714 got TKO'd by Yurashic.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Mimsy for President »

yurashic wrote:
Method_man714 wrote:Are you trying to excuse a genocide?


No, there was no genocide. Soviet purges were aimed at people who did not agree with the goverment policy, not about nationality or religion.
That's what I call good old soviet negationism because politics obviously doesn't take into nationality and religion. :roll:
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by lordraphael »

yurashic wrote:
Method_man714 wrote:Are you trying to excuse a genocide?


No, there was no genocide. Soviet purges were aimed at people who did not agree with the goverment policy, not about nationality or religion.

it was a witch hunt with millions of casualties. Im always a bit shocked how bad the past is cleared in other nations. I could probably take any country and name a few "incidents" which havent been processed at all by the people in that country.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Dolan »

I posted a reply, but it disappeared, so I CBA to write it again.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Dolan »

iNcog wrote:Good post, but I'm not seeing the root cause of those depressions. You're just saying "it's the fault of capitalism" without actually going into the details of "this caused that, then something else happened". It's just rhetoric, which does little to convince me.
Now, in order to be completely fair, if you were to tell me "the feds should be able to adjust monetary policy and/or intervene in the economy in a way which prevents the root-causes of those depressions from taking place", then I would agree with you.
I'm not against state intervention, but it needs to remain minimal, be effective and respect individual economic freedom. Reckless speculation in ways which could damage the market and provoke recessions are obviously infringing upon the rights of others, so government intervention in this case is legitimate.
It's not unsimilar to how it's illegal to drive drunk: the risk-taking of one may have heavy consequences on others.
The obvious hard part is discerning the right root causes in order to find the correct governmental action which would actually help. Easier said than done, for sure.

Each of those recessions or depressions had contextual causes, it wasn't the same issue every time. Sometimes it was because a war just ended and the great number of soldiers coming back home would disrupt the labour market which couldn't integrate all of them, so then you'd get unusually high unemployment rate, which would lead to lower demand, etc.
Some other times it was related to speculative bubbles, such as those related to rail roads investment.
Some other times yet, there was a bank panic which had effects that rippled through the entire financial system.
There wasn't one single type of problem that would cause these crises.

The 2008 crisis was the perfect example of a systemic flaw. The free market devised some financial products which increased the risks for the whole system. When some banks crashed because of their exposure to very high levels of leveraging, the state intervened before a liquidity crisis would appear. Basically those banks would have been in the position to be unable to make payments because they had no access to any liquidity, even though they were neck-deep into unredeemable paper assets. The US Fed realised this and started buying some of their troubled assets from their books, basically injecting free money into their balance sheets. Just to save some reckless private companies. This doesn't look at all like a free market operation. Those companies, normally, should have been left to go bankrupt, but they were considered too big to fail. So, private economic agents are allowed to grow to the point where they are too big to fail and can take on any degree of risks they want: if the risks pay off, they keep the profits, if the risks blow up in their face, the state jumps in and saves them. Sounds like a good deal. Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses. That's how the free market works.

There has already been a lot of talk about increasing regulations for the financial sector. The result is that markets are back to the same practices they used before 2008.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by iNcog »

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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by fitosone »

iNcog wrote:How can you "abuse a system".

That's why you have laws and justice systems in place. To prevent abuse..

If capitalism presents flaws or loopholes (which it does) in ways which can be abused, you have regulations in place to close that up. That's why there is no such good thing as a 100% free market.

Capitalism itself is inherently correct, it's based on individual freedom. There are going to be loopholes in it which need to be closed up, yes.

I would point to the shortcomings of legislation and a poor ability to enforce economic laws (tax evasion and corruption) rather than just say "capitalism is evil hurr durr"


I see you are from France by your flag emblem, I do not want to sound like "oh yeah i understand the world better cause im from other place" but i do understand the "abuse a system" part, In Mexico we have capitalism as most countries do today, and we do have laws and justice systems, but in any system were corruption exist there will be abuse, i know for what i have brevely talked with a cousin that for the last 10-15 years have lived his adult life in France, that this abuse and loopholes are harder to grow in well designed and administrated countries.

Im gonna give an example that actually happened, while my cousin wanted to sell some "lightbulbs" he was offering the best quality available on the market, however he was trying to sell them here in Mexico, he was bringing them from Netherlands, he tried to sell them for public ligthing, the problem was that no one here wanted quality not public or private sector, they only wanted the cheapiest posible so they could say that it cost 5-6 times that and get that money for themselves, thats basically how free market works were i live (and i belive is probably not the only one). Systems can be and will be abused, while the main objective of this systems remain to be the adquisition of wealth and as far as wealth can be translated to power.

Now for the capitalism it's based on individual freedom, then we have to define individual freedom, this is problematic since freedom is something that we could spend days, months and years trying to explain, but i think that it can be safe to say indivual freedom is any action that doesnt coerce any other individual into such action, by this definition, Capitalism it's actually not about individual freedom but more about individual success, cause you have to ask yourself do you really have a choice about what you will work, or do in life, i mean you do, but you are forced to pay a price if your decision is not a marketable, see i've seen these hundreds of times, people studying and working on stuff they don't like or even dreamt about, but they have to do it cause it pays well, i've heard them say let's be realistic you have to study this cause it will bring bread to your table, does that sounds like a good example of individual freedom? it is freedom but for me most of the free mark scheme is a bunch of coersion and i am not saying it's evil, it's practical, much more practical than the socialist or communist alternatives, it sorts out by itself, but it's far from being "individual freedom" you have the freedom to buy or sell or own a lot of stuff, but not the actual freedom to choose your part in such system.

I made it sound way too gloomy, but i think it remains accurate somewhat.
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Netherland Antilles Laurence Drake
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Laurence Drake »

iNcog wrote:
Those companies, normally, should have been left to go bankrupt, but they were considered too big to fail. So, private economic agents are allowed to grow to the point where they are too big to fail and can take on any degree of risks they want: if the risks pay off, they keep the profits, if the risks blow up in their face, the state jumps in and saves them. Sounds like a good deal. Privatise the profits, nationalise the losses. That's how the free market works.


Hey, I agree. It's dumb as shit-sticks that the USA taxpayers would have to pay for those mistakes. Agreed, agreed entirely.

Right now those companies are today as reckless as they were in 2008. This, to me, is a failure from the US government. There isn't a single politician out there which is addressing those issues either. That's where you would ideally want governments to intervene though. Especially since you've got a clique of bankers who make more money gambling like crazy in the way they're doing than the bottom 40% (whatever the real number is) of the US population. There's your problem. Welfare programs and all that shit are very nice and all, but they don't address the root cause of the problem.

I don't know where you're getting this from. It's widely accepted that systemic flaws contributed to the recession. The financial industry in the post-recession world is more regulated than ever. Virtually every major investment bank has downsized since the crisis. They are cutting down on their riskiest operations because they no longer make the same profits. Safe, boring commercial banking is where the money is now being made. Maybe there are still too many people earning too much money, but don't act like it's been the same or worse since the crisis.

Also, this thread is full of strawmen. It's the left-wingers who think the government was right to step in and force the public to absorb the losses. A free-market purist would have allowed the banks to fail. It's over-regulation that lets crises like the 2008 recession occur, because that's what encourages excessive risk-taking, which the public eventually pays for.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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im anarchist. cuz im OG, the Original Garaja.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by goldenicon »

Let's invade a couple countries, implement communism in one and capitalism in the other for testing imo. We could use a couple countries like north Korea and Iran to see if the results could benefit our own politics.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by spanky4ever »

iNcog said:
There isn't a single politician out there which is addressing those issues either.


Actually there is! His name starts with San and ends with ders.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Goodspeed »

Laurence Drake wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Dolan brings up great points. Frankly it amazes me that people still believe in the free market after what happened in 2008, that there is still this sentiment that if you leave the market alone it sorts itself out. Is it a lack of understanding about what happened? Perhaps the misguided belief that something like this wouldn't happen again? The illusion that people are capable of doing the right thing and owning up to their mistakes when there are millions of $ on the line? I don't know any more at this point, it's discouraging.

Seriously, watch The Big Short guys. I wasn't kidding. It's highly entertaining as well as informative.

Liar's Poker was better.
You expect people to actually read a book?
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Laurence Drake »

Goodspeed wrote:
Laurence Drake wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Dolan brings up great points. Frankly it amazes me that people still believe in the free market after what happened in 2008, that there is still this sentiment that if you leave the market alone it sorts itself out. Is it a lack of understanding about what happened? Perhaps the misguided belief that something like this wouldn't happen again? The illusion that people are capable of doing the right thing and owning up to their mistakes when there are millions of $ on the line? I don't know any more at this point, it's discouraging.

Seriously, watch The Big Short guys. I wasn't kidding. It's highly entertaining as well as informative.

Liar's Poker was better.
You expect people to actually read a book?

yea :chinese:
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by momuuu »

Thats a weird expectation
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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I think that I'm getting close to a point where I'm literally physically incapable of reading a whole book, at least in a reasonable amount of time
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

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I only read (audiobooks) because it's one of the few things you can do while driving. Actually currently looking for something to read (fiction).
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by gibson »

Goodspeed wrote:I only read (audiobooks) because it's one of the few things you can do while driving. Actually currently looking for something to read (fiction).
text and drive
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by Laurence Drake »

Goodspeed wrote:I only read (audiobooks) because it's one of the few things you can do while driving. Actually currently looking for something to read (fiction).

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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

I don't know what was said or not but truth is we do not have free market to even compare with and it would have failed. The free market was a failure because led to big monopolies. There is also no free market with subsidized commodities. The free market was actually conquered by the banks and debt/ credit fraud.
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Re: Communism sucks and free market is the way to go

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

also, how can there be a free market where one is forced to buy something (insurance).

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