The Left's War on Christianity

[Mr. Pecksniff]

Why are you trawling the web for such images, goy?

"I''m not trolling! Honest!"

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[johaggis]

Religion need not be violent and awful but people are stupid and dicks. Morality need not come from religion, however I do think morals are a real thing. Is there some great moral principle we use that can solve every moral case? No, but I don't think the burden of proof is on me to explain why lighting cats on fire for fun is bad.

[gibson]

No, but I don''t think the burden of proof is on me to explain why lighting cats on fire for fun is bad.

I think the burden of proof is on you. The cat has no intrinsic value to me so why shouldn''t I use it for my own sadistic purposes?

[Jaeger]

No, but I dont think the burden of proof is on me to explain why lighting cats on fire for fun is bad.

I think the burden of proof is on you. The cat has no intrinsic value to me so why shouldnt I use it for my own sadistic purposes?

If for no other reason, because other people will shun you because they will see your are violent and crazy and will therefore not want you in their group, which is a big disadvantage from an evolutionary perspective.

Now if youre talking about you being the only human in the universe with a bunch of cats and weather its ok for you to burn them, thats a whole different story.

[Jaeger]

Much of modern Christianity has been distorted and changed from what they believe Jesus would have wanted. This results in an ugly Christianity which no one wants. Its like that quote ( i don''t remember from whom), but it goes something like this:

"1/10 of people will read the Bible, the others will read the Christian."

A lot of friends and people i know have had a bad experience with a Christian, and now are completely closed to the idea of it. As a Christian myself, we need to try harder to live out Christs teachings to avoid this misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Christianity.

Many modern Christians have assumed a position of arrogance, thinking that they are somehow instantly better than everyone else who is non Christian. This was one of the things that turned me away from Christianity when i was an Atheist.

I am personally not too alarmed at how the west is turning against it. It is expected, and actually prophesied in the Bible. We just need to keep on spreading the love of Jesus, if not in the west, then in the east. Christianity has gone through numerous persecutions throughout history, and i am certain that it will last.

I believe that Nietzsche has a whole ton to do with it as well. He was one of the clearest thinkers on what would happen once society rejects Christianity. He predicted that the times after his ideas were published would be different.

"I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous - a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite."
- Ecce Homo, FN

Just my thoughts, BUGAVITTIViTESSE

So you used to be an atheist. What convinced you that a god exists, and that this god is the christian god?

[Mr. Pecksniff]

No, but I dont think the burden of proof is on me to explain why lighting cats on fire for fun is bad.

I think the burden of proof is on you. The cat has no intrinsic value to me so why shouldnt I use it for my own sadistic purposes?

In that case you might as well prove why your sadistic purposes have any intrinsic value worth pursuing.

[bugattivitesse]

Much of modern Christianity has been distorted and changed from what they believe Jesus would have wanted. This results in an ugly Christianity which no one wants. Its like that quote ( i dont remember from whom), but it goes something like this:

"1/10 of people will read the Bible, the others will read the Christian."

A lot of friends and people i know have had a bad experience with a Christian, and now are completely closed to the idea of it. As a Christian myself, we need to try harder to live out Christs teachings to avoid this misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Christianity.

Many modern Christians have assumed a position of arrogance, thinking that they are somehow instantly better than everyone else who is non Christian. This was one of the things that turned me away from Christianity when i was an Atheist.

I am personally not too alarmed at how the west is turning against it. It is expected, and actually prophesied in the Bible. We just need to keep on spreading the love of Jesus, if not in the west, then in the east. Christianity has gone through numerous persecutions throughout history, and i am certain that it will last.

I believe that Nietzsche has a whole ton to do with it as well. He was one of the clearest thinkers on what would happen once society rejects Christianity. He predicted that the times after his ideas were published would be different.

"I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous - a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite."
- Ecce Homo, FN

Just my thoughts, BUGAVITTIViTESSE

So you used to be an atheist. What convinced you that a god exists, and that this god is the christian god?

Personal testimony mainly. Its perhaps the thing that most non Christians find ridiculous about Christianity, but to Christians, its our one of our most solid beliefs. When there is one person who prays to a god and says their prayer was answered, or they heard the voice of god, you may be able to dismiss it as an illusion, or a dream, or just plain craziness. But when you have millions, spread all across the globe, who have never had contact with each other, claiming to have had the same or similar experiences, that explanation doesnt seem to work anymore. And this is something that has driven many Christians to die for their faith, because they are certain that God exists.

It seems to be quite a leap of faith to not recant your religion, when you are being threatened with immediate death if you dont. In a book i read, Whats so great about christianity?, by Dinesh DSouza, that it seems that through natural selection Christians should have died off by now. If anything, Christianity lessens your chance of survival, through tithing, relying on a god, and etc. But somehow there are 2.1 billion today. (Although probably a large section are only nominal)

Anyway, that bit is somewhat unrelated, but the main reason was personal experience. A lot of scientific arguments are nice, but you cant learn about God through science, just about his creation.

I hope that answers your question, BUGATTIVITESSE

[Jaeger]

So you used to be an atheist. What convinced you that a god exists, and that this god is the christian god?

Personal testimony mainly. Its perhaps the thing that most non Christians find ridiculous about Christianity, but to Christians, its our one of our most solid beliefs. When there is one person who prays to a god and says their prayer was answered, or they heard the voice of god, you may be able to dismiss it as an illusion, or a dream, or just plain craziness. But when you have millions, spread all across the globe, who have never had contact with each other, claiming to have had the same or similar experiences, that explanation doesnt seem to work anymore. And this is something that has driven many Christians to die for their faith, because they are certain that God exists.

It seems to be quite a leap of faith to not recant your religion, when you are being threatened with immediate death if you dont. In a book i read, Whats so great about christianity?, by Dinesh DSouza, that it seems that through natural selection Christians should have died off by now. If anything, Christianity lessens your chance of survival, through tithing, relying on a god, and etc. But somehow there are 2.1 billion today. (Although probably a large section are only nominal)

Anyway, that bit is somewhat unrelated, but the main reason was personal experience. A lot of scientific arguments are nice, but you cant learn about God through science, just about his creation.

I hope that answers your question, BUGATTIVITESSE

You could say the same thing pretty much about any major religion tho , like there are millions of muslims around the world who share similar experiences, and there are muslims who die for their faith. Also about the evolutionary thing, that would work if the only people christians wouldnt convert anybody, just continue their religion trough their children.

[gibson]

I think the burden of proof is on you. The cat has no intrinsic value to me so why shouldnt I use it for my own sadistic purposes?

In that case you might as well prove why your sadistic purposes have any intrinsic value worth pursuing.

I dont have to prove it. If I enjoy doing something, and someone else says what Im doing is wrong, its up to them to prove that its wrong. I dont have to prove that its right. Im just doing what comes naturally to me and brings me pleasure.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Jam]

I enjoy keeping people from being sadistic though.

Prove to me that I have no right to tell you what to do.

I have a right to not be told what to do by you, prove to me that I don''t.

[gibson]

I enjoy keeping people from being sadistic though.

Prove to me that I have no right to tell you what to do.

You have every right to tell me what to do. And I have every right not to listen. Anyway that''s not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to figure why the original person talking about cats thought that torturing cats was wrong and who or what lay down that law. Unfortunately he has yet to make another appearance.

[benj89]

First it is wrong because animal cruelty is punished by the law. Farid Ghilas in france got condemned 30k euros and 2 year of jail for throwing a cat against a wall, like 2 years ago. this smart guy posted the video on fb, it became viral.
Second, because torture is against what would be called objective morality. this term is arguable, and it has been discussed in other threads (my pov is that there is ofc an objective morality, but it wasn't shared by everyone I think, re read old threads if u have time)

edit: just checked, he only did 1 year in jail in the end

[bugattivitesse]

Personal testimony mainly. Its perhaps the thing that most non Christians find ridiculous about Christianity, but to Christians, its our one of our most solid beliefs. When there is one person who prays to a god and says their prayer was answered, or they heard the voice of god, you may be able to dismiss it as an illusion, or a dream, or just plain craziness. But when you have millions, spread all across the globe, who have never had contact with each other, claiming to have had the same or similar experiences, that explanation doesnt seem to work anymore. And this is something that has driven many Christians to die for their faith, because they are certain that God exists.

It seems to be quite a leap of faith to not recant your religion, when you are being threatened with immediate death if you dont. In a book i read, Whats so great about christianity?, by Dinesh DSouza, that it seems that through natural selection Christians should have died off by now. If anything, Christianity lessens your chance of survival, through tithing, relying on a god, and etc. But somehow there are 2.1 billion today. (Although probably a large section are only nominal)

Anyway, that bit is somewhat unrelated, but the main reason was personal experience. A lot of scientific arguments are nice, but you cant learn about God through science, just about his creation.

I hope that answers your question, BUGATTIVITESSE

You could say the same thing pretty much about any major religion tho , like there are millions of muslims around the world who share similar experiences, and there are muslims who die for their faith. Also about the evolutionary thing, that would work if the only people christians wouldnt convert anybody, just continue their religion trough their children.

Something you cant say about every other religion though is how it has influenced society in a positive way. Look at the west, and compare with the middle east. I dont want to start a flame war about racism, but it is apparent which has advanced farther. In Saudi Arabia recently, Atheists have now been called "terrorists" by the government. And women need a male guardian. America has its flaws as well though, but we are progressing daily to get past them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28389.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /20134065/

Another thing Christianity has going for it are the great men and women who have helped humanity, from Dietrich Bonhoffuer, who openly opposed Hitler in Germany to Martin Luther King Jr., who paid the price for equality finally with his life. The idea of self sacrifice is something Jesus preached, and all Christians should be ready to do.

So no, i wouldnt say Christianity is like other major religions. If it was, i dont think it would have gotten as big.

[gibson]

First it is wrong because animal cruelty is punished by the law. Farid Ghilas in france got condemned 30k euros and 2 year of jail for throwing a cat against a wall, like 2 years ago. this smart guy posted the video on fb, it became viral.
Second, because torture is against what would be called objective morality. this term is arguable, and it has been discussed in other threads (my pov is that there is ofc an objective morality, but it wasn''t shared by everyone I think, re read old threads if u have time)

edit: just checked, he only did 1 year in jail in the end

So because something is punishable by law means its wrong? I don''t think that''s accurate. You''re saying that every law over the entire span of human existence is a just and right law. That''s crazy. Unless of course you believe that humans today are superior than other humans. Even today, there are many laws that don''t make sense and breaking them isn''t wrong. Also, please tell me where this "objective morality" comes from. Where can I find it, and where does it say that torturing cats is wrong?

[Jaeger]

You could say the same thing pretty much about any major religion tho , like there are millions of muslims around the world who share similar experiences, and there are muslims who die for their faith. Also about the evolutionary thing, that would work if the only people christians wouldnt convert anybody, just continue their religion trough their children.

Something you cant say about every other religion though is how it has influenced society in a positive way. Look at the west, and compare with the middle east. I dont want to start a flame war about racism, but it is apparent which has advanced farther. In Saudi Arabia recently, Atheists have now been called "terrorists" by the government. And women need a male guardian. America has its flaws as well though, but we are progressing daily to get past them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28389.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /20134065/

Another thing Christianity has going for it are the great men and women who have helped humanity, from Dietrich Bonhoffuer, who openly opposed Hitler in Germany to Martin Luther King Jr., who paid the price for equality finally with his life. The idea of self sacrifice is something Jesus preached, and all Christians should be ready to do.

So no, i wouldnt say Christianity is like other major religions. If it was, i dont think it would have gotten as big.

The scientific advancement in the west was not due to the church tho, it happened in spite of the church. The church generally discouraged scientific research' Im sure you know of Galileo Galileo, who was prosecuted for supporting the idea that the sun does NOT revolve around the earth.

If you were from that part of the world, Im sure you would know of people of other religions who have done similar things. A well known example is Gandhi, who was a Hindu.

What do you think would have happened if you DID happen to be born in that part of the world tho? What if you were born in an African tribe, and never even heard the word jesus, and you would never have a chance to "be saved"? Would god send you to hell without giving o a chance?

[Goodspeed]

I enjoy keeping people from being sadistic though.

Prove to me that I have no right to tell you what to do.

You have every right to tell me what to do. And I have every right not to listen. Anyway thats not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to figure why the original person talking about cats thought that torturing cats was wrong and who or what lay down that law. Unfortunately he has yet to make another appearance.

Are you the gibson from agecomm?

How are you? I recall a 20+ page discussion about religion via PM lol

[Mr. Pecksniff]

You could say the same thing pretty much about any major religion tho , like there are millions of muslims around the world who share similar experiences, and there are muslims who die for their faith. Also about the evolutionary thing, that would work if the only people christians wouldnt convert anybody, just continue their religion trough their children.

Something you cant say about every other religion though is how it has influenced society in a positive way. Look at the west, and compare with the middle east. I dont want to start a flame war about racism, but it is apparent which has advanced farther. In Saudi Arabia recently, Atheists have now been called "terrorists" by the government. And women need a male guardian. America has its flaws as well though, but we are progressing daily to get past them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28389.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /20134065/

Another thing Christianity has going for it are the great men and women who have helped humanity, from Dietrich Bonhoffuer, who openly opposed Hitler in Germany to Martin Luther King Jr., who paid the price for equality finally with his life. The idea of self sacrifice is something Jesus preached, and all Christians should be ready to do.

So no, i wouldnt say Christianity is like other major religions. If it was, i dont think it would have gotten as big.

How were any of the things you mentioned influenced by religion?

[Mr. Pecksniff]

Shalom, brother.

[bugattivitesse]

Something you cant say about every other religion though is how it has influenced society in a positive way. Look at the west, and compare with the middle east. I dont want to start a flame war about racism, but it is apparent which has advanced farther. In Saudi Arabia recently, Atheists have now been called "terrorists" by the government. And women need a male guardian. America has its flaws as well though, but we are progressing daily to get past them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 28389.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /20134065/

Another thing Christianity has going for it are the great men and women who have helped humanity, from Dietrich Bonhoffuer, who openly opposed Hitler in Germany to Martin Luther King Jr., who paid the price for equality finally with his life. The idea of self sacrifice is something Jesus preached, and all Christians should be ready to do.

So no, i wouldnt say Christianity is like other major religions. If it was, i dont think it would have gotten as big.

The scientific advancement in the west was not due to the church tho, it happened in spite of the church. The church generally discouraged scientific research' Im sure you know of Galileo Galileo, who was prosecuted for supporting the idea that the sun does NOT revolve around the earth.

If you were from that part of the world, Im sure you would know of people of other religions who have done similar things. A well known example is Gandhi, who was a Hindu.

What do you think would have happened if you DID happen to be born in that part of the world tho? What if you were born in an African tribe, and never even heard the word jesus, and you would never have a chance to "be saved"? Would god send you to hell without giving o a chance?

Oh i would say it was. Think of Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, Tycho Brahe, Galileo, Rene Descarte, Gottfried Leibenz, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Arthur eddington,George Washington Carver, Werner Heisenberg, Kurt Godel to name several prominent names. Where would science be without them? They were all brilliant men of science who saw no conflict with their belief in a God. You will notice i included a few names of men who were persecuted for their beliefs as well by the Church. They however, were Christians, who believed in a God. So it was not a confliction between the religous and the non religous, just different views on religion.
The Church of that time was very bad about dealing with people it did not agree with.
Thankfully the Enlightenment made Christianity go back to what it was supposed to be, less governing.

Can you show me where the Church discourages scientific research please? I have never heard that one.

I can never know for sure what would happen to someone who never heard of Jesus, but the Bible assures us that God is a just God, and we will be judged based on what we were given. He would not create someone just to destroy them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."
Rev. 7:9

[bugattivitesse]

How were any of the things you mentioned influenced by religion?

Rev. MLK constantly quoted the Bible, but I think he wasnt particularly religious and probably only used it to gain support. His support for Marxism wasnt Christian either.

Dude...he was a pastor.

[Mr. Pecksniff]

It has been quite a while since I read up on him, but I believe that at one point in life he lost his faith but continued to publicly promote Christian values because he believed there was a great amount of good in Christianity.

The fact that he had a Christian background is apparently enough to prove that his religious beliefs had a crucial impact on his achievements.

[Jaeger]

The scientific advancement in the west was not due to the church tho, it happened in spite of the church. The church generally discouraged scientific research' Im sure you know of Galileo Galileo, who was prosecuted for supporting the idea that the sun does NOT revolve around the earth.

If you were from that part of the world, Im sure you would know of people of other religions who have done similar things. A well known example is Gandhi, who was a Hindu.

What do you think would have happened if you DID happen to be born in that part of the world tho? What if you were born in an African tribe, and never even heard the word jesus, and you would never have a chance to "be saved"? Would god send you to hell without giving o a chance?

Oh i would say it was. Think of Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, Tycho Brahe, Galileo, Rene Descarte, Gottfried Leibenz, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Arthur eddington,George Washington Carver, Werner Heisenberg, Kurt Godel to name several prominent names. Where would science be without them? They were all brilliant men of science who saw no conflict with their belief in a God. You will notice i included a few names of men who were persecuted for their beliefs as well by the Church. They however, were Christians, who believed in a God. So it was not a confliction between the religous and the non religous, just different views on religion.
The Church of that time was very bad about dealing with people it did not agree with.
Thankfully the Enlightenment made Christianity go back to what it was supposed to be, less governing.

Can you show me where the Church discourages scientific research please? I have never heard that one.

I can never know for sure what would happen to someone who never heard of Jesus, but the Bible assures us that God is a just God, and we will be judged based on what we were given. He would not create someone just to destroy them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."
Rev. 7:9

The part about the church discouraging scientific research, I already gave you Galileo Galileo. He was the guy who did things like perfecting the telescope, and realizing that objects fall at the same speed no matter their mass. With his observations from his telescope, he was able to realize that the sun doesnt revolve around the earth (the church tought it did). When he publicized his findings, the church bullied him into recanting and "admitting" that the earth DOES revolve around the sun. You can imagine the level of encouragement of astronomers after that incident.


For part about newton and the others:
Those scientists saw no problem with their faith because they had no knowledge there was any. They didnt have radiometric dating to prove that the earth is much older than the bible claims it is, and they didnt have the theory of evolution to prove that life developed contrary to how the bible says it did. Thats why most scientists today are atheist, because they are exposed to those flaws.

[bugattivitesse]

Oh i would say it was. Think of Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler, Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, Tycho Brahe, Galileo, Rene Descarte, Gottfried Leibenz, Blaise Pascal, Gregor Mendell, Louis Pasteur, Lord Kelvin, Arthur eddington,George Washington Carver, Werner Heisenberg, Kurt Godel to name several prominent names. Where would science be without them? They were all brilliant men of science who saw no conflict with their belief in a God. You will notice i included a few names of men who were persecuted for their beliefs as well by the Church. They however, were Christians, who believed in a God. So it was not a confliction between the religous and the non religous, just different views on religion.
The Church of that time was very bad about dealing with people it did not agree with.
Thankfully the Enlightenment made Christianity go back to what it was supposed to be, less governing.

Can you show me where the Church discourages scientific research please? I have never heard that one.

I can never know for sure what would happen to someone who never heard of Jesus, but the Bible assures us that God is a just God, and we will be judged based on what we were given. He would not create someone just to destroy them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."
Rev. 7:9

The part about the church discouraging scientific research, I already gave you Galileo Galileo. He was the guy who did things like perfecting the telescope, and realizing that objects fall at the same speed no matter their mass. With his observations from his telescope, he was able to realize that the sun doesnt revolve around the earth (the church tought it did). When he publicized his findings, the church bullied him into recanting and "admitting" that the earth DOES revolve around the sun. You can imagine the level of encouragement of astronomers after that incident.


For part about newton and the others:
Those scientists saw no problem with their faith because they had no knowledge there was any. They didnt have radiometric dating to prove that the earth is much older than the bible claims it is, and they didnt have the theory of evolution to prove that life developed contrary to how the bible says it did. Thats why most scientists today are atheist, because they are exposed to those flaws.

The bible says nothing about the age of the earth. I think you will find that orthodox christians believe in an earth that is 4.5 billion years old, and accept evolution. The idea of a 6000 year old earth is flawed, and came from a 17th century preacher who took the genealogies and estimated how old the earth must have been. And to say that they simply didnt have enough research back then is just wrong. They knew the earth was much older. You are thinking of southern baptists or something, who reject evolution and an old earth based on their own ignorance.

A question for you since you keep on with Galileo. If Christians are supposed to live according to the Bible, and the Church at that time was persecuting him, not based on Biblical teaching, but based on their own opinions, should we accuse Christianity for his persecution?

My answer is of course not. We should judge a religion by its followers who follow it according to its own rules, not those who act ignoring them.