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Isle of Man iCourt
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06 Mar 2017, 08:51

- Sioux:
- Teepee HP changed to 800
- Teepee aura range increased by 50%
- Teepees now have a gather rate bonus of 4% per teepee with a max of 20% per villager
- Infantry can now build teepees
- Changed aggressive policy card to increase gather rate bonus to 6%
The changes speak for themselves.
Actually I'd like to know how you all ended up with these changes. They're pretty radical and seem to veer off quite a bit from the original intention of the patch. Not saying the changes are bad, or wrong, however I'm curious on how you reached this direction as opposed to keeping their core play style intact.
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Canada Mitoe
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06 Mar 2017, 09:02

Sioux is kind of a nomadic civilization. This seemed like a good way to keep with that theme.

It's definitely better design-wise than just giving them steel traps, IMO.
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06 Mar 2017, 10:14

I'm so hyped for sioux, time to change up my 100% japan laming
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Finland princeofkabul
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06 Mar 2017, 14:41

Jerom wrote:
DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:
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Dutch was too strong...

The last serious interaction I had was me destroying your dutch with a random civ I sucked at because the civ is that shitty.

Every patch started out with 'dutch is definitely OP' (even ep1.0) and every time I thought people might be sorta right and they might be sorta fine. After RE and EP1.0 it turned out they were still unplayable. After EP2.0 my opinion of dutch was influenced by the community again, but in the end after playing tons of games as then and watching their performance in the tournament I dont get how you could conclude dutch is anywhere above average. A competent player is going to abuse their weaknesses properly. And even if you dont, their fortress isnt really that strong.

As on ep2.0, they lose to at least spain, british, aztec, russia. Germany is going to rape them again and they might have still been favored against dutch. Japan is a hard match up, china is hard to win, ports is honestly a rough match up, india is surprisingly hard, otto can really give you a hard time. The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again. Oh and dutch was one of the worst civs against iro and sioux so if those are buffed properly dutch is probably their victim. Theres not one easy win left after this patch, if theres mus they win at all, and there are many terrible match ups. I dont understand the logic behind the nerf.. Why did you nerf an average civ? Just because of team players? Why did you not take out the 5th bank which is pretty close to irrelevant in 1v1?


I've beat decent people with dutch before and im not even that familiar with the civ? Maybe it's just you played vs people that are better than you in general that makes you feels so. I really don't think they're weak in all those mu's you just listen.
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Netherlands Jerom
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06 Mar 2017, 14:45

It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.

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06 Mar 2017, 15:03

Ive played sioux for quite a bit now and im very exited for these changes.

5 teepees around tc (in the early game) will give the equivalent of steel traps for 250w with no need for a market, also can be seen as buying the spice trade card for 250 wood. also 3 teepees is equivalent to investment of market + HD but provides a slighty higher eco boost, xp change is neglible but a better position to resist early rushes with a (1.1)^3 % increase of troops and explorer hp around the TC

I think there is now a viability of starving/camping out opponents resources with teepees and army while also maintain a respectable eco. This is of course very scary with the hp buff, pathing issues and also the attack increase card. Could this be a new meta for long thin maps? like ?Klondike? (the 5 tp and berry bush in the south east of map).

Im excited in watching how this pans out. Before EP, sioux even though has its ups and downs was a simple enough civ to play so hopefully this can give some expert players an incentive to play this.
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06 Mar 2017, 15:06

Jerom wrote:It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.
you can talk all you want about how you're not biased and Dutch is really bad, but at the end of the day players better than yourself decided that they needed a slight nerf, so it's clear that even after your 5k games with dutch you either don't have a proper grasp of the civ or are biased.
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06 Mar 2017, 15:07

Jerom wrote:It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.

From my experience, Dutch wins almost any semi-ff war on EP 2.0, except against ports and maybe tp/vc brits. That I think is why many people think they are too good. You need to have some amount of colonial pressure against dutch if you are going to win, even on RE. As france, no one wants to train some musks or do a colonial timing push, even though from my experience french has a much better shot at beating dutch if they do so. Same with germany, its kinda hard for them on EP if they go semi-ff in my experience, but with a few pikes it is much better for them. Many of these changes are pretty much undoing some of the good things that the EP did. With dutch, my issue with them was the 5 banks, not their cost. Goodspeed said that the problem was that they could get a free TP with their banks, but I think more of the issue was that you could get a very cheap 5th bank with the wood saved. I wonder what dutch would be like if they were restored to where they were on Vanilla, except with balanced skirms and a bank wagon. I play dutch a lot on vanilla and I kinda like the extra vill over cheaper banks, as you can do a lot more with that early eco advantage.

I'm just concerned because last patch they overbuffed some civs because they nerfed those civs main competetoirs (think like russia vs. france, or ports vs. everything), and I think the same has been done on this patch. I would have liked to have seen russia and dutch remain fairly the same, but buff france and germany back and we see what happens in like a 2-3 week open beta.
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06 Mar 2017, 15:21

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.
you can talk all you want about how you're not biased and Dutch is really bad, but at the end of the day players better than yourself decided that they needed a slight nerf, so it's clear that even after your 5k games with dutch you either don't have a proper grasp of the civ or are biased.

Refer to what mitoe and lordraphael wrote in this thread. Or otherwise refer to the civs people picked in tournament games. Most people I spoke to agreed that dutch wasn't a top civ at all. Were they weak? No. They were fine, a great civ that wins and loses some. But then they decided to nerf a change in a meaningless manner except that it recreates the weakness against stagecoach play. All the 300w banks did, besides maybe result in 3-4 extra units in fortress, was prevent the stagecoach build orders.

Dutch's build orders on RE have always been way too tight to actually be able to steal a TP, while most other civs can quite easily steal a TP or contest a TP line. If we continue playing like people are doing right now, which is not really doing the super quick stagecoach builds anymore, then this nerf wouldn't matter much. The entire reason it was a great buff was because it prevented the stagecoach builds from absolutely raping dutch (I mean, you just get banks but cheaper and dutch struggles way too much to contest a TP line). Now with 50 food bonus instead of 50w bonus nothing really happens. The free TP mart was talking about in the original post doesn't actually exist. Theres the 'shit he's doing stagecoach lets cut a house and military for a bit (which I can do because he's booming more than usual) and steal one of those TPs' TP, and the other sort of TP is still viable after this change, just requires a tiny bit more effort. The entire reason 300w banks were good is because it was just barely enough of a buff to steal that TP in time. Let me reiterate how strong stagecoach can be if dutch can't steal a TP: 12 villagers for 800w and 200f, while 2 banks (~9 villagers) cost dutch 600f and 700w. How can Dutch even contest the TPs? Staying colonial is the most dangerous thing you can do, the longer you stay colonial the harder it becomes to properly beat the timing push and your army composition just isn't even good enough to actually be out on the map.

This 300w change was the best change for this reason. Otherwise I couldn't give a fuck. If you need to nerf dutch, adress any of the other changes like the XP change or the 5th bank or just nerf bank gather rate. Any of those changes would be better. We're just back at Dutch having a weakness against something that completely outclasses the entire dutch civ bonus. Stagecoach france is just doing Dutch but twice as good. Better eco, better lategame, better colonial, better fortress units, faster fortress mass.

So even in the hypothetical case, which so far is backed up by nothing at all, that dutch was about as strong as ports and definitely stronger than brits/aztec/spain, and thus deserved a nerf, then this nerf is still the worst nerf you could have gone for. I tried to explain this to mart long ago because about ~1 week after EP2.0 release he was already implying he wanted to revert the bank cost changes and that the 5th bank and xp changes were really great or something. It appears that it was to no avail.

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06 Mar 2017, 15:37

I didn't say that Dutch was fine on this newest iteration nor that they were a top civ on a previous iteration. What I did say was that you're wrong about them being awful and losing basically every single matchup on the previous iteration. We have yet to see how they'll be with this current change. It's possible that they'll be under powered again, or its possible they'll still be fine. I did look at what mitoe and Raphael said, they said Dutch was an okay civ on the previous ep, which is completely different then what you said, which is that they lose every single mu but French.
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06 Mar 2017, 15:43

gibson wrote:I didn't say that Dutch was fine on this newest iteration nor that they were a top civ on a previous iteration. What I did say was that you're wrong about them being awful and losing basically every single matchup on the previous iteration. We have yet to see how they'll be with this current change. It's possible that they'll be under powered again, or its possible they'll still be fine. I did look at what mitoe and Raphael said, they said Dutch was an okay civ on the previous ep, which is completely different then what you said, which is that they lose every single mu but French.

Sorry, but you're completely failing to read my assesments of dutch. I never claimed dutch was losing every single mu but vs france.

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06 Mar 2017, 15:56

Jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:I didn't say that Dutch was fine on this newest iteration nor that they were a top civ on a previous iteration. What I did say was that you're wrong about them being awful and losing basically every single matchup on the previous iteration. We have yet to see how they'll be with this current change. It's possible that they'll be under powered again, or its possible they'll still be fine. I did look at what mitoe and Raphael said, they said Dutch was an okay civ on the previous ep, which is completely different then what you said, which is that they lose every single mu but French.

Sorry, but you're completely failing to read my assesments of dutch. I never claimed dutch was losing every single mu but vs france.


The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again.
?
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06 Mar 2017, 16:05

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:I didn't say that Dutch was fine on this newest iteration nor that they were a top civ on a previous iteration. What I did say was that you're wrong about them being awful and losing basically every single matchup on the previous iteration. We have yet to see how they'll be with this current change. It's possible that they'll be under powered again, or its possible they'll still be fine. I did look at what mitoe and Raphael said, they said Dutch was an okay civ on the previous ep, which is completely different then what you said, which is that they lose every single mu but French.

Sorry, but you're completely failing to read my assesments of dutch. I never claimed dutch was losing every single mu but vs france.


The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again.
?

I claimed the only match up decisively in the favor of dutch was versus france, and mentioned a few match ups that are hard and probably not in the favor of dutch and I mentioned a few match ups that are terrible for dutch. Now if you could actually respond to the things I have posted that'd be great, I'm not really up for your typical petty arguments.

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06 Mar 2017, 16:05

Well, the reason that the 50f change is meaningless is because what dutch struggled with and needed more of was wood. With the 300w change, they weren't necessarily locked into having to ship 1k wood first in fortress to stay competitive, which is absolutely huge. With 50f, they now will probably age a little bit faster, but now have to ship 1k wood if they want to have a decent mass and not be housed. Better to keep the 300w change but reduce bank limit to 4.

And I know we haven't even played the patch yet, but changes like these that mostly effect build orders are very easy to talk about in the abstract, as everything is just numbers at this point.
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06 Mar 2017, 16:07

Darwin_ wrote:Well, the reason that the 50f change is meaningless is because what dutch struggled with and needed more of was wood. With the 300w change, they weren't necessarily locked into having to ship 1k wood first in fortress to stay competitive, which is absolutely huge. With 50f, they now will probably age a little bit faster, but now have to ship 1k wood if they want to have a decent mass and not be housed. Better to keep the 300w change but reduce bank limit to 4.

That seems rather extreme, since we're only talking about a handful of villager seconds. The only problem with this change is the stagecoach problem I described, otherwise you're just talking about a 24 wood nerf in terms of villager seconds. That makes this change so poor, it doesn't really do anything except in a specific case where its effect is extremely negative.

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06 Mar 2017, 16:11

Jerom wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Well, the reason that the 50f change is meaningless is because what dutch struggled with and needed more of was wood. With the 300w change, they weren't necessarily locked into having to ship 1k wood first in fortress to stay competitive, which is absolutely huge. With 50f, they now will probably age a little bit faster, but now have to ship 1k wood if they want to have a decent mass and not be housed. Better to keep the 300w change but reduce bank limit to 4.

That seems rather extreme, since we're only talking about a handful of villager seconds. The only problem with this change is the stagecoach problem I described, otherwise you're just talking about a 24 wood nerf in terms of villager seconds. That makes this change so poor, it doesn't really do anything except in a specific case where its effect is extremely negative.

I never even thought about the stagecoach stuff, but I guess I see where you are coming from. And, while it is only like 300 (400 if 5 banks) vill seconds, it is still wood, which is super precious for dutch. With 150-200 less wood, that means they'll have to buy some, chop it, or ship 1k wood, which means that their second or third batches in fortress aren't going to be full, or that they'll be down 8 skirm/9 ruyter in the first minute of fortress. This would'nt be a big deal if not for the french/german/iro buffs.
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06 Mar 2017, 16:15

Darwin_ wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Well, the reason that the 50f change is meaningless is because what dutch struggled with and needed more of was wood. With the 300w change, they weren't necessarily locked into having to ship 1k wood first in fortress to stay competitive, which is absolutely huge. With 50f, they now will probably age a little bit faster, but now have to ship 1k wood if they want to have a decent mass and not be housed. Better to keep the 300w change but reduce bank limit to 4.

That seems rather extreme, since we're only talking about a handful of villager seconds. The only problem with this change is the stagecoach problem I described, otherwise you're just talking about a 24 wood nerf in terms of villager seconds. That makes this change so poor, it doesn't really do anything except in a specific case where its effect is extremely negative.

I never even thought about the stagecoach stuff, but I guess I see where you are coming from. And, while it is only like 400 (500 if 5 banks) vill seconds, it is still wood, which is super precious for dutch. With 200-250 less wood, that means they'll have to buy some, chop it, or ship 1k wood, which means that their second or third batches in fortress aren't going to be full, or that they'll be down 8 skirm/9 ruyter in the first minute of fortress. This would'nt be a big deal if not for the french/german/iro buffs.

Its 150 wood at most if you're not shipping 1000w, and they can just get full batches in fortess np. You're making shit up.

But yeah the france/germany/iro/sioux buffs are going to hit dutch pretty hard I expect and then they nerf dutch which wasn't even that great so it's still going to be sad. But you don't have to exaggerate the only reason the 300w matters is because of stagecoach builds.

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06 Mar 2017, 16:31

Jerom wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
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I never even thought about the stagecoach stuff, but I guess I see where you are coming from. And, while it is only like 400 (500 if 5 banks) vill seconds, it is still wood, which is super precious for dutch. With 200-250 less wood, that means they'll have to buy some, chop it, or ship 1k wood, which means that their second or third batches in fortress aren't going to be full, or that they'll be down 8 skirm/9 ruyter in the first minute of fortress. This would'nt be a big deal if not for the french/german/iro buffs.

Its 150 wood at most if you're not shipping 1000w, and they can just get full batches in fortess np. You're making shit up.

But yeah the france/germany/iro/sioux buffs are going to hit dutch pretty hard I expect and then they nerf dutch which wasn't even that great so it's still going to be sad. But you don't have to exaggerate the only reason the 300w matters is because of stagecoach builds.

As I said, I didn't even think of how it affected stagecoach builds. How does the wood change help them contest the tp route? Is it becuase they can build a tp or that they can now train 5 pikes easily?

You said they can easily get batches in fortress, is this on 2 rax and 2 stable, 1 rax 1 stable, or 2 rax 1 stable? I was mostly talking about the 2 rax stuff.

EDIT whoops, forgot about bank wagon. Too much of a vanilla scrub :P
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06 Mar 2017, 19:00

Atomiswave wrote:Tashuke is just one of many AOE III units that are useless in current competitive meta.

There have been useless in any competitive meta so far :!:

forgrin wrote:The problem is that Opris aren't really good in a regular game until lategame or in small raiding batches (ex. 6 opri shipment). Tashunke would inevitably be just as useless until lategame, where they would become cancer with stealth. I'd rather have an irrelevant unit than a cancer one myself.

Every time I see Russia in age 3 there is time at which opris are sent. They're niche, sure, though still very good. I'd imagine the same could be applied to tashunke prowlers buffed in such a way.

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.
you can talk all you want about how you're not biased and Dutch is really bad, but at the end of the day players better than yourself decided that they needed a slight nerf, so it's clear that even after your 5k games with dutch you either don't have a proper grasp of the civ or are biased.

Is being biased in such a case necessarily a bad thing? :hmm:
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06 Mar 2017, 19:19

Jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:
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The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again.
?

I claimed the only match up decisively in the favor of dutch was versus france, and mentioned a few match ups that are hard and probably not in the favor of dutch and I mentioned a few match ups that are terrible for dutch. Now if you could actually respond to the things I have posted that'd be great, I'm not really up for your typical petty arguments.
So apparently now saying something is "easy" means it's actually easy instead of the opposite, which is what using "" have always meant, a change that is going to amount to no more than 60 vil seconds over the course of a game is game breaking, and 9 out of 12 matchups is "a few". Everyone knows that you think Dutch is awful, and will always continue to think dutch is awful regardless of what is changed, so you might as well just come out and say it.
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06 Mar 2017, 19:19

pecelot wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Tashuke is just one of many AOE III units that are useless in current competitive meta.

There have been useless in any competitive meta so far :!:

forgrin wrote:The problem is that Opris aren't really good in a regular game until lategame or in small raiding batches (ex. 6 opri shipment). Tashunke would inevitably be just as useless until lategame, where they would become cancer with stealth. I'd rather have an irrelevant unit than a cancer one myself.

Every time I see Russia in age 3 there is time at which opris are sent. They're niche, sure, though still very good. I'd imagine the same could be applied to tashunke prowlers buffed in such a way.

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's mostly based on my playing against dutch myself. Easiest win in your life. If you want to claim it's bias I invite people to look at my tournament civ picks.
you can talk all you want about how you're not biased and Dutch is really bad, but at the end of the day players better than yourself decided that they needed a slight nerf, so it's clear that even after your 5k games with dutch you either don't have a proper grasp of the civ or are biased.

Is being biased in such a case necessarily a bad thing? :hmm:
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06 Mar 2017, 19:22

iCourt wrote:It's impossible to make every unit viable. Some units core design just doesn't work. Rajput for example even if boosted would virtually never be used. There just isn't a viable spot for them when India has 2 awesome anti cav units in colonial, 3 viable options come fortress.

Tashunke falls somewhat into the same category to a lesser extent, with Sioux having 2 viable options with Axe Riders and Dog Soliders. The third unit even if boosted probably just wouldn't have a place, or if over boosted one of the 2 other options becomes useless.

I've seen quite a few high level players using rajputs (Masterchief, Boneng, Aizamk). But virtually nobody uses Tashunke prowlers. Yeah, the problem with them is finding a niche for them that doesn't conflict with the specialisation of other units.

India has more types of units, it's one of the civs with the highest variety of units, so having a less used unit doesn't affect them much. But Sioux has few types of units, so making Tashunke viable would have maybe created some interesting gameplay for them.
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06 Mar 2017, 19:34

I like the changes. Would have liked to see china old han buff reverted or changed somehow to give them other options than ff
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06 Mar 2017, 19:37

The Dutch change is much more then a total of 250w if you make 5 banks, it lets you build one more house or a market upgrade with 700w. It lets you get a house + bank with 400w or bank + market. And it lets you get two banks off 600w without chopping anything. This change actually hits Dutch pretty hard, you can't always argue things from a VS POV. If Dutch gets there market that much sooner then the upgrades are sooner you get the bank XP, and banks gathering coin sooner the game is all about a steamroll affect. Especially with fre and ger buffs I expect Dutch to struggle quite a bit on this patch.
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06 Mar 2017, 19:39

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I claimed the only match up decisively in the favor of dutch was versus france, and mentioned a few match ups that are hard and probably not in the favor of dutch and I mentioned a few match ups that are terrible for dutch. Now if you could actually respond to the things I have posted that'd be great, I'm not really up for your typical petty arguments.
So apparently now saying something is "easy" means it's actually easy instead of the opposite, which is what using "" have always meant, a change that is going to amount to no more than 60 vil seconds over the course of a game is game breaking, and 9 out of 12 matchups is "a few". Everyone knows that you think Dutch is awful, and will always continue to think dutch is awful regardless of what is changed, so you might as well just come out and say it.

Can you even read? Like seriously?

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