Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Poland pecelot
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by pecelot »

gibson wrote:ye it doesn't matter that its fixing a bug lol. A change that makes a civ worse is a nerf lol

although the second sentence I can't deny lol, it was a well-deserved nerf lol, ye, and every bug should be fixed, ideally, lol.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by rickytickitembo »

Thing is those hundreds of testers weren't nearly as good. There is soooo much more information today. Their balance team probably would be pr 20ish by today's standards.

ovi12 wrote:
Omkar_Satapathy wrote:I never like such balancing patches made by individuals like fan patch, ESOC patch, improvement mod, enhancement mod. They unbalance the game and actually take the fun out of game instead of making it better. Why don't you understand, the game must have been made by team of hundreds of people and they have already worked hard to make it balanced. Why do you guys need to make your individual balancing?

Why would you trust a bunch of people who had played the game maybe a few months, and who put Otto and Russia as the hardest civs to play in the AOE3 manual, to balance the game better than pros who have been playing for 5-10 years?
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by deleted_user0 »

Rikikipu wrote:So funny to see that back in the days, professionals of balancing games in Microsoft Studios drew conclusion about the game after 6 months of playtesting and how you guys draw conclusion about the game after 10 minuts after reading patch notes.

Honestly, what kind of mushrooms you eat or just trolling? :hehe:
Indeed need 6 months to find out how France 5f cdb (YOU NEED TO GATHER NOW 30F MORE FOOD BEFORE AGE COMPARED TO RE!!!) or Uhlan +-5hp changes meta COMPLETELY. And to find out if -5hp uhlan completely balanced Rus-Germ MU from re patch.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Kaiserklein »

Come on it changes some match ups... Having uhlans > huss or huss > uhlans can mean you are able or not to cav semi for example
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by deleted_user0 »

It's just easy to blame changes

Lose Germ vs Brit--->"it's only because my uhlans are nerfed!!! those cav fights mattered so much"
Lose versus russia-->"fuck this -5f vill made them so imba now, I deserved a win but it's only cause changes"

that's why you nerfed russia again
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Atomiswave »

It wasn't mentioned in change log, so we can safely assume tepees cost 50w like before. For amount of value they now provide they seem too cheap.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Kaiserklein »

You're just maybe not subtle enough to notice the differences between the patches, idk... It's easy to see that with russia now it's much easier to go early market for example, which can be a big deal, or that ports are insane, or that goons drop faster etc
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by iCourt »

Sioux changes are drastic. Changes the fundamental way the civ is played. Something the patch was not supposed to change.

There are pros and cons to this, but making the civ play too different will make the Patch less successful.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

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Post by KINGofOsmane »

iCourt wrote:Sioux changes are drastic. Changes the fundamental way the civ is played. Something the patch was not supposed to change.

There are pros and cons to this, but making the civ play too different will make the Patch less successful.

sucess ?did i miss something?
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Omkar_Satapathy »

ovi12 wrote:Why would you trust a bunch of people who had played the game maybe a few months, and who put Otto and Russia as the hardest civs to play in the AOE3 manual, to balance the game better than pros who have been playing for 5-10 years?

Then who should we trust if we have such a large number of similar community made balance patches to choose to choose from. Everyone has his/her own taste and tries to balance it in his/her own way. Naturally my trust goes to original game makers, no matter if they played the game only for few months.
This is just my personal view, I still support this community's effort to preserve this unique piece of game through different competition and other stuff.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Atomiswave »

iCourt wrote:Sioux changes are drastic. Changes the fundamental way the civ is played. Something the patch was not supposed to change.

There are pros and cons to this, but making the civ play too different will make the Patch less successful.


I agree, it fundamentally changes the way civ plays. From br rush to tepee reliance which were never the thing in re, fp and previous versions of ep. On the other hand, if it manages to fix Sioux, It will be great, but still its a big change. So big, it will affect every viable BO Sioux has.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Jaeger »

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Why would you trust a bunch of people who had played the game maybe a few months, and who put Otto and Russia as the hardest civs to play in the AOE3 manual, to balance the game better than pros who have been playing for 5-10 years?

Then who should we trust if we have such a large number of similar community made balance patches to choose to choose from. Everyone has his/her own taste and tries to balance it in his/her own way. Naturally my trust goes to original game makers.
This is just my personal view, I still support this community's effort to preserve this unique piece of game through different competition and other stuff.


We should trust the current team for a few reasons:
1) They have the perspective of seeing how all the patches worked out, so they can try to not repeat their mistakes
2) This is the only patch that is continually updated, so if there is something wrong with it you have the option to talk about it and get it fixed
3) It's made with the most current game knowledge in mind.

Other reasons to play it is anticheat and rated games on ESOC maps.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Garja »

To be clear, game devs hardly balanced the game at all. Most game balancing was done by actual players (from twc era atleast) who by my knowledge were something like tier3 players (back when pr50 was a thing).
Also there is one and only balance patch for aoe3 and it is the Esoc Patch. Old FP members are also in part current EP team members.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Omkar_Satapathy »

@Jaeger You are right, EP is the most trust worthy patch among all others.
But I still have the feeling, when you start balancing a game, many times it happens you start balancing your own new balances rather than the game. Generally this happens when you introduce such a large amount of tweaks here and there. I prefer minimal changes.
I like getting bug fixes (missing sounds/art) or adding new features (maps/building rotation). If it's possible can ESOC please release a simpler version of this awesome patch.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by pecelot »

iCourt wrote:Sioux changes are drastic. Changes the fundamental way the civ is played. Something the patch was not supposed to change.

There are pros and cons to this, but making the civ play too different will make the Patch less successful.

perhaps just no choice ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:@Jaeger You are right, EP is the most trust worthy patch among all others.
But I still have the feeling, when you start balancing a game, many times it happens you start balancing your own new balances rather than the game. Generally this happens when you introduce such a large amount of tweaks here and there. I prefer minimal changes.
I like getting bug fixes (missing sounds/art) or adding new features (maps/building rotation). If it's possible can ESOC please release a simpler version of this awesome patch.

EP has always been for little tweaks, the only major change are Sioux now, for a change, nomen omen :hmm:
EP already adds new maps and building rotator which you can use in the base game as well.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Omkar_Satapathy »

pecelot wrote:
Omkar_Satapathy wrote:@Jaeger You are right, EP is the most trust worthy patch among all others.
But I still have the feeling, when you start balancing a game, many times it happens you start balancing your own new balances rather than the game. Generally this happens when you introduce such a large amount of tweaks here and there. I prefer minimal changes.
I like getting bug fixes (missing sounds/art) or adding new features (maps/building rotation). If it's possible can ESOC please release a simpler version of this awesome patch.

EP has always been for little tweaks, the only major change are Sioux now, for a change, nomen omen :hmm:
EP already adds new maps and building rotator which you can use in the base game as well.

I know it adds new maps, bug fixes and building rotation ( I use EP) but is it possible to play them without other balance stuff?
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Dolan »

I wonder why ESOC thought Sioux needed an overhaul, but nobody even considered that their useless Tashunke prowler unit needed some kind of change to encourage players to actually use it.

Is there nothing interesting that can be done to revive this unit somehow? Maybe they can be useful vs artillery or smth like that, since they have a stealth stance.

It's a shame for this civ, because they already have few units, that one of their cav is a dummy unit.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by pecelot »

Omkar_Satapathy wrote:
pecelot wrote:
Omkar_Satapathy wrote:@Jaeger You are right, EP is the most trust worthy patch among all others.
But I still have the feeling, when you start balancing a game, many times it happens you start balancing your own new balances rather than the game. Generally this happens when you introduce such a large amount of tweaks here and there. I prefer minimal changes.
I like getting bug fixes (missing sounds/art) or adding new features (maps/building rotation). If it's possible can ESOC please release a simpler version of this awesome patch.

EP has always been for little tweaks, the only major change are Sioux now, for a change, nomen omen :hmm:
EP already adds new maps and building rotator which you can use in the base game as well.

I know it adds new maps, bug fixes and building rotation ( I use EP) but is it possible to play them without other balance stuff?

ESOC maps alone are available on this site, building rotator works even on RE if you enable it, bug fixes are restricted exclusively for the patch.

Dolan wrote:I wonder why ESOC thought Sioux needed an overhaul, but nobody even considered that their useless unit Tashunke prowler needed some kind of change to encourage players to actually use it.

Is there nothing interesting that can be done to revive this unit somehow? Maybe they can be useful vs artillery or smth like that, since they have a stealth stance.

Perhaps it still wouldn't be enough. I'm yet to figure out usage of them, though, I need to play more Sioux — the newest EP iteration should be a good incentive!
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Dolan »

Tashunke's problems are: they have a very low train limit (12, I think), they can only be trained from fortress up and don't have upgrades later age.

So, they come too late, in very small numbers, and don't have any upgrades that would make it worth training them (who would upgrade a unit that can be trained in limited numbers?).

Maybe they should be re-purposed as Sioux opris. So: eliminate the training limit, their stacking stats and their stealth and just make them the best raiding unit, that can only be trained from fortress up, like opris. It's an idea to start with.

PS. But then, the siege dance would have to be nerfed.. which is a unique civ feature. :hmm:
Not that simple.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Atomiswave »

Dolan wrote:Tashunke's problems are: they have a very low train limit (12, I think), they can only be trained from fortress up and don't have upgrades later age.

So, they come too late, in very small numbers, and don't have any upgrades that would make it worth training them (who would upgrade a unit that can be trained in limited numbers?).

Maybe they should be re-purposed as Sioux opris. So: eliminate the training limit, their stacking stats and their stealth and just make them the best raiding unit, that can only be trained from fortress up, like opris. It's an idea to start with.

PS. But then, the siege dance would have to be nerfed.. which is a unique civ feature. :hmm:
Not that simple.


Tashuke is just one of many AOE III units that are useless in current competitive meta. I think there is no way around it, not all units can be viable. They can be max situational even if you do buff em in some way....
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by forgrin »

Dolan wrote:Tashunke's problems are: they have a very low train limit (12, I think), they can only be trained from fortress up and don't have upgrades later age.

So, they come too late, in very small numbers, and don't have any upgrades that would make it worth training them (who would upgrade a unit that can be trained in limited numbers?).

Maybe they should be re-purposed as Sioux opris. So: eliminate the training limit, their stacking stats and their stealth and just make them the best raiding unit, that can only be trained from fortress up, like opris. It's an idea to start with.

PS. But then, the siege dance would have to be nerfed.. which is a unique civ feature. :hmm:
Not that simple.


The problem is that Opris aren't really good in a regular game until lategame or in small raiding batches (ex. 6 opri shipment). Tashunke would inevitably be just as useless until lategame, where they would become cancer with stealth. I'd rather have an irrelevant unit than a cancer one myself.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Zhanson10 »

Yay u fixed uhlans slightly now theyll be slightly less shitty units
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by iCourt »

Dolan wrote:Tashunke's problems are: they have a very low train limit (12, I think), they can only be trained from fortress up and don't have upgrades later age.

So, they come too late, in very small numbers, and don't have any upgrades that would make it worth training them (who would upgrade a unit that can be trained in limited numbers?).

Maybe they should be re-purposed as Sioux opris. So: eliminate the training limit, their stacking stats and their stealth and just make them the best raiding unit, that can only be trained from fortress up, like opris. It's an idea to start with.

PS. But then, the siege dance would have to be nerfed.. which is a unique civ feature. :hmm:
Not that simple.
It's impossible to make every unit viable. Some units core design just doesn't work. Rajput for example even if boosted would virtually never be used. There just isn't a viable spot for them when India has 2 awesome anti cav units in colonial, 3 viable options come fortress.

Tashunke falls somewhat into the same category to a lesser extent, with Sioux having 2 viable options with Axe Riders and Dog Soliders. The third unit even if boosted probably just wouldn't have a place, or if over boosted one of the 2 other options becomes useless.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by deleted_user »

iCourt wrote:It's impossible to make every unit viable. Some units core design just doesn't work. Rajput for example even if boosted would virtually never be used. There just isn't a viable spot for them when India has 2 awesome anti cav units in colonial, 3 viable options come fortress.
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Re: Newest Edition of ESOC Patch Coming Soon!

Post by Aizamk »

deleted_user wrote:
iCourt wrote:It's impossible to make every unit viable. Some units core design just doesn't work. Rajput for example even if boosted would virtually never be used. There just isn't a viable spot for them when India has 2 awesome anti cav units in colonial, 3 viable options come fortress.
@Aizamk

Besides, you can't cover mode a zamburak now can you? :geek:

What can I say, mac scrubs don't know how to play the game, if they did then they'd be petitioning to nerf rajput...
oranges.

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