ESOCommunity

deadrising78 wrote:I like the changes. Would have liked to see china old han buff reverted or changed somehow to give them other options than ff

Yeah, I was also advocating for lessening old han nerf to 25%. 50% is too much, card is now not so good.

Dolan wrote:I've seen quite a few high level players using rajputs (Masterchief, Boneng, Aizamk, EAGLEMUT).

FTFY

Jerom wrote:Can you even fucking read? Like seriously?

I can't, but I can count, I do have a proper grasp of what quotation marks mean in the English language, and I know the definition of the words few and easy

__Uhlan__ wrote:The Dutch change is much more then a total of 250w if you make 5 banks, it lets you build one more house or a market upgrade with 700w. It lets you get a house + bank with 400w or bank + market. And it lets you get two banks off 600w without chopping anything. This change actually hits Dutch pretty hard, you can't always argue things from a VS POV. If Dutch gets there market that much sooner then the upgrades are sooner you get the bank XP, and banks gathering coin sooner the game is all about a steamroll affect. Especially with fre and ger buffs I expect Dutch to struggle quite a bit on this patch.

Ye they're likely to be bottom tier just on re.

gibson wrote:

Jerom wrote:Can you even fucking read? Like seriously?

I can't, but I can count, I do have a proper grasp of what quotation marks mean in the English language, and I know the definition of the words few and easy

Okay try very hard:
"As on ep2.0, they lose to at least spain, british, aztec, russia. Germany is going to rape them again and they might have still been favored against dutch. Japan is a hard match up, china is hard to win, ports is honestly a rough match up, india is surprisingly hard, otto can really give you a hard time. The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again. Oh and dutch was one of the worst civs against iro and sioux so if those are buffed properly dutch is probably their victim. Theres not one easy win left after this patch, if theres mus they win at all, and there are many terrible match ups. I dont understand the logic behind the nerf.. Why did you nerf an average civ? Just because of team players? Why did you not take out the 5th bank which is pretty close to irrelevant in 1v1?"

Let's break it down together shall we. I first off claim there are 3 match ups they lose for sure: Spain, British and Aztec.
Then I say Germany buff is going to result in Germany being vastly favored against them just like they were before EP2.0 (just about anyone agrees with this right?)
Then I say that Japan, China, Ports, India and Otto are match ups that are hard and thus probably pretty close at least.
Then I say that they were beating france on EP2.0 but that they will probably lose against france on EP3.0.
Then I explain that sioux and iro were really weak, but relatively okay against dutch so they're going to do pretty well against Dutch on EP3.0
Then I explain, based on that, that there will probably be no easy wins left because france was the only 'easy' mu with easy in quotations because it still requires you to perfectly adapt to them
And then, here's the big one, I write "Why did you nerf an average civ?" Please note the word average, if you don't know what it means look it up in a dictionary or something, and conclude that I don't think that Dutch was weak on EP2.0.

I guess I am biased in that I care much more about Dutch being balanced than other civs, partially also because I have much more to say about dutch from a balance point of view though.

@momuuu

At least they can surely beat Russia in 3.0.....

Jerom wrote:

gibson wrote:

Jerom wrote:Can you even fucking read? Like seriously?

I can't, but I can count, I do have a proper grasp of what quotation marks mean in the English language, and I know the definition of the words few and easy

Okay try very hard:
"As on ep2.0, they lose to at least spain, british, aztec, russia. Germany is going to rape them again and they might have still been favored against dutch. Japan is a hard match up, china is hard to win, ports is honestly a rough match up, india is surprisingly hard, otto can really give you a hard time. The only 'easy' mu they had was vs france and due to this change theyre going to lose that again. Oh and dutch was one of the worst civs against iro and sioux so if those are buffed properly dutch is probably their victim. Theres not one easy win left after this patch, if theres mus they win at all, and there are many terrible match ups. I dont understand the logic behind the nerf.. Why did you nerf an average civ? Just because of team players? Why did you not take out the 5th bank which is pretty close to irrelevant in 1v1?"

Let's break it down together shall we. I first off claim there are 3 match ups they lose for sure: Spain, British and Aztec.
Then I say Germany buff is going to result in Germany being vastly favored against them just like they were before EP2.0 (just about anyone agrees with this right?)
Then I say that Japan, China, Ports, India and Otto are match ups that are hard and thus probably pretty close at least.
Then I say that they were beating france on EP2.0 but that they will probably lose against france on EP3.0.
Then I explain that sioux and iro were really weak, but relatively okay against dutch so they're going to do pretty well against Dutch on EP3.0
Then I explain, based on that, that there will probably be no easy wins left because france was the only 'easy' mu with easy in quotations because it still requires you to perfectly adapt to them
And then, here's the big one, I write "Why did you nerf an average civ?" Please note the word average, if you don't know what it means look it up in a dictionary or something, and conclude that I don't think that Dutch was weak on EP2.0.

Thank you for allowing me to the see the light! Not sure what I would have done without it.

@Atomiswave Can they though? I'm not even sure, used to be an extremely hard match up on EP1.0. I must say I did miss that change and don't know how it will play out. Generally speaking dutch is a fast civ so the little speed boost that russia got out of the vill cost change didnt have the snowball effect against dutch that it has against some other civs, I think.

Also the other patch notes are partially good (iro buff, germany buff, france buff/rework) because those civs needed at least a little bit of love. I'm afraid the sioux changes make them way too strong, and the dutch/japan/russia nerfs are not justified if you compare how strong those civs are to how strong port (minimal 5 food nerf, the same as the russia one basically except ports were way stronger) and british (not nerfed) are. Especially if you consider France and germany becoming better too which is mostly a nerf to Dutch and Russia.

I think this patch would be amazing if you remove the change to russia, dutch and don't nerf way of the bow without compensation. And of course if the Sioux buff works out.

Jerom wrote:@Atomiswave Can they though? I'm not even sure, used to be an extremely hard match up on EP1.0. I must say I did miss that change and don't know how it will play out. Generally speaking dutch is a fast civ so the little speed boost that russia got out of the vill cost change didnt have the snowball effect against dutch that it has against some other civs, I think.

At least Dutch buffs are not reverted, just changed a bit. They still have additional xp for banks, but I have to agree on bank cost switch, it will hurt them in the long run. They practically lost 200w for 4 banks, which is much more precious than 200f, especially for Dutch.

Atomiswave wrote:

Jerom wrote:@Atomiswave Can they though? I'm not even sure, used to be an extremely hard match up on EP1.0. I must say I did miss that change and don't know how it will play out. Generally speaking dutch is a fast civ so the little speed boost that russia got out of the vill cost change didnt have the snowball effect against dutch that it has against some other civs, I think.

At least Dutch buffs are not reverted, just changed a bit. Still I agree on bank cost switch, it will hurt them in the long run. They practically lost 200w for 4 banks, which is much more precious than 200f.

its mostly 150w/150f because bank wagon

Dunno why you would even ship bank wagon when banks are cheaper, why not 4 vils and pay for your bank later

@momuuu

Yes, but its still a nerf. I would rather go with 5-4 bank limit. In practice its much smaller nerf than this.

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno why you would even ship bank wagon when banks are cheaper, why not 4 vils and pay for your bank later

A bank is quite a bit better than the 4 vills actually (consider especially the large amount of build xp), you could make a 5th bank too but usually that was too greedy anyways and after that you still had market upgrades to get so the 4 vills with the idea that you can expand your eco more later is not really worth much as dutch I think.

@sdsanft Any news on when the patch will drop?

I'm not sure how people are able to be so sure that a change will produce an extremely negative effect when they haven't even played on this version yet.

Jerom wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno why you would even ship bank wagon when banks are cheaper, why not 4 vils and pay for your bank later

A bank is quite a bit better than the 4 vills actually (consider especially the large amount of build xp), you could make a 5th bank too but usually that was too greedy anyways and after that you still had market upgrades to get so the 4 vills with the idea that you can expand your eco more later is not really worth much as dutch I think.

1 dutch vil gathers 0.69 coin/s. So 4 dutch vils gather 2.76 coin/s. A bank gathers 2.75 coin/s. So a bank is actually almost exactly 4 vils. A bank gives xp, true, but vils benefit from market upgrades. Also replacing a bank by vils means that you still have the margin to build 1 extra bank later on

Kaiserklein wrote:

Jerom wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno why you would even ship bank wagon when banks are cheaper, why not 4 vils and pay for your bank later

A bank is quite a bit better than the 4 vills actually (consider especially the large amount of build xp), you could make a 5th bank too but usually that was too greedy anyways and after that you still had market upgrades to get so the 4 vills with the idea that you can expand your eco more later is not really worth much as dutch I think.

1 dutch vil gathers 0.69 coin/s. So 4 dutch vils gather 2.76 coin/s. A bank gathers 2.75 coin/s. So a bank is actually almost exactly 4 vils. A bank gives xp, true, but vils benefit from market upgrades. Also replacing a bank by vils means that you still have the margin to build 1 extra bank later on

While I like the idea in practise I'm just doing much better with the bank wagon. I tried the 4 vills and stuff but it was just disappointing :(

Kaiserklein wrote:

Jerom wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:Dunno why you would even ship bank wagon when banks are cheaper, why not 4 vils and pay for your bank later

A bank is quite a bit better than the 4 vills actually (consider especially the large amount of build xp), you could make a 5th bank too but usually that was too greedy anyways and after that you still had market upgrades to get so the 4 vills with the idea that you can expand your eco more later is not really worth much as dutch I think.

1 dutch vil gathers 0.69 coin/s. So 4 dutch vils gather 2.76 coin/s. A bank gathers 2.75 coin/s. So a bank is actually almost exactly 4 vils. A bank gives xp, true, but vils benefit from market upgrades. Also replacing a bank by vils means that you still have the margin to build 1 extra bank later on

If such details are taken into consideration, remember about idle and walking time of villagers!

Kaiserklein wrote:1 dutch vil gathers 0.69 coin/s. So 4 dutch vils gather 2.76 coin/s. A bank gathers 2.75 coin/s. So a bank is actually almost exactly 4 vils. A bank gives xp, true, but vils benefit from market upgrades. Also replacing a bank by vils means that you still have the margin to build 1 extra bank later on

Sending 4 vills and building 5 banks is overbooming.

forgrin wrote:@sdsanft Any news on when the patch will drop?

Probably going to take a couple more days. We're currently in bug-fixing phase, making sure all the changes do work as advertised.

I even lose to sioux half of the re games, thats gonna be great

pecelot wrote:If such details are taken into consideration, remember about idle and walking time of villagers!

Details ? Market upgrades are a detail ?

yurashic wrote:Sending 4 vills and building 5 banks is overbooming.

Depends at what point in the game and depends which match up...

Dolan wrote:

iCourt wrote:It's impossible to make every unit viable. Some units core design just doesn't work. Rajput for example even if boosted would virtually never be used. There just isn't a viable spot for them when India has 2 awesome anti cav units in colonial, 3 viable options come fortress.

Tashunke falls somewhat into the same category to a lesser extent, with Sioux having 2 viable options with Axe Riders and Dog Soliders. The third unit even if boosted probably just wouldn't have a place, or if over boosted one of the 2 other options becomes useless.

I've seen quite a few high level players using rajputs (Masterchief, Boneng, Aizamk). But virtually nobody uses Tashunke prowlers. Yeah, the problem with them is finding a niche for them that doesn't conflict with the specialisation of other units.

India has more types of units, it's one of the civs with the highest variety of units, so having a less used unit doesn't affect them much. But Sioux has few types of units, so making Tashunke viable would have maybe created some interesting gameplay for them.

Lol I remember the only time I played vs tashukunee prowlers. I build a tower by a hunt and had like 25 vills there. Next time I look, there just appear 12 area damage cav between my vills and the tower. Every one of the vills died xD

The hero stealth card prolly just exists because of Tashunkes.