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Netherlands Jerom
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16 Apr 2017, 20:28

__Uhlan__ wrote:I still don't get why elo is used for seeding, many examples of a good player having a low elo, and it's not like you guys don't know the good and bad players...hazza with a 2100 elo is not a 2100 elo player, and there are also many other examples that I'm to lazy to look for. It's 256 players the seeding could be done way better, I mean this tourney it's very clear the bottom bracket is 10x harder and I don't get why it hasn't been changed yet.

You're saying it could be done way better, but don't present an alternative. That reduces this post to utterly useless in practise.

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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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16 Apr 2017, 20:33

__Uhlan__ wrote:I still don't get why elo is used for seeding, many examples of a good player having a low elo, and it's not like you guys don't know the good and bad players...hazza with a 2100 elo is not a 2100 elo player, and there are also many other examples that I'm to lazy to look for. It's 256 players the seeding could be done way better, I mean this tourney it's very clear the bottom bracket is 10x harder and I don't get why it hasn't been changed yet.

Elo is only so inaccurate, because sup players prefer unrated gamesbfor some reason.
I'd still rather have an slightly unbalanced elo seeding instead of seeding based on comparing players' skills by opinions and observing
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Netherlands Jerom
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16 Apr 2017, 20:34

Seeding based on opinions is impossible logistically aswell as would be extremely biased, seeding based on pr seems worse than elo. Dont think random seeding would be any good either.

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16 Apr 2017, 20:40

ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Netherlands Jerom
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16 Apr 2017, 20:43

lordraphael wrote:ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers

Dont even think hazzas elo is that low though. Seems to represent his skill at least somewhat decently.

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Russia yurashic
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16 Apr 2017, 21:00

Gichtenlord wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:I still don't get why elo is used for seeding, many examples of a good player having a low elo, and it's not like you guys don't know the good and bad players...hazza with a 2100 elo is not a 2100 elo player, and there are also many other examples that I'm to lazy to look for. It's 256 players the seeding could be done way better, I mean this tourney it's very clear the bottom bracket is 10x harder and I don't get why it hasn't been changed yet.

Elo is only so inaccurate, because sup players prefer unrated gamesbfor some reason.
I'd still rather have an slightly unbalanced elo seeding instead of seeding based on comparing players' skills by opinions and observing


Elo is inaccurate because some people only play on EP against people from their friend list, some people play 90% unrated, some people play quicksearch with random opponents, unpredictable maps and cheaters.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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16 Apr 2017, 21:24

Jerom wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers

Dont even think hazzas elo is that low though. Seems to represent his skill at least somewhat decently.


Bit harsh. I think 2.5k is achievable if hazzy played some more games on elo.
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Germany Akechi_Mitsuhide
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16 Apr 2017, 21:28

Jerom wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers

Dont even think hazzas elo is that low though. Seems to represent his skill at least somewhat decently.

Please play a nice grudge match! :biggrin:
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16 Apr 2017, 21:35

WickedCossack wrote:
Jerom wrote:
lordraphael wrote:ye there is no alternative to seeding players based on elo. Its true some players like hazza arent seeded properly becasue their elo doesnt display the skill but in the end its their own fault. They could have also played a bunch of rated games to get elo up. Not like its the fault of the tourney organisers

Dont even think hazzas elo is that low though. Seems to represent his skill at least somewhat decently.

Bit harsh. I think 2.5k is achievable if hazzy played some more games on elo.

Well i was 2060 or sth when the seeds happened lol. If you were to look at his games vs gua then 2.5k seems like an overestimation and isnt he like 2350 or sth right now?

At least it should be clear that theres not really a viable alternative method.

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Italy DaRkNiTe1698
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16 Apr 2017, 21:41

Ye but sometimes he beats diarouga who is a pr42+. It's a great result I guess
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16 Apr 2017, 23:08

Hazza is for sure a 2.5k elo player, ofc he had tourney nerves and hasn't played much tournies before right? It happens. He also got cheesed two games so that's always fun. Anyways...I don't need to point out a new system to demonstrate that the current one is clearly flawed. It's not horrible no, and the seeding should be mainly based off elo, but there should always be exceptions, like certain mu's of players that are bound to happen in a certain round should be slightly moved around from the brackets elo create. The elo brackets should be a base. Then you move and mix match from a unbias point of view to create better seeding. Like the top bracket is clearly worse then the bottom bracket player for player doesn't take a genius to see that there clearly not even close to even. That should of been manually adjusted not just blindly published becuase that's what ELO says.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:10

I think thats way too subjective, and honestly too much work. Also Hazza has actively been playing rated games and that has gotten him the 2300 elo he is right now, so I don't see how he's a 2500 player.

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16 Apr 2017, 23:14

Jerom wrote:I think thats way too subjective, and honestly too much work. Also Hazza has actively been playing rated games and that has gotten him the 2300 elo he is right now, so I don't see how he's a 2500 player.


to much work to have a balanced tourney with a 1500 prize pool, yea. And no your just wrong he does not actively play rated 1x1. Like you really have no idea how wrong you are if any pr35+ sits in qs you you get 2500 elo, just from beating 2200-2300 elo players not becuase your beating pr38+. Umeu has 4 2480+ active elo accounts, does that me he is better then hazza? No...rofl, umeu is just a single example and he is still a good player not bashing him in anyway. But elo is just not accurate measure of skill at all.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:18

I think ELO is a fair measure. If you want to push your agenda, I think you'd have gotten a terrible seed if I were to adjust elo's, because I think I'd have randomly guessed you're not as good as your elo claims.

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16 Apr 2017, 23:39

Jerom wrote:I think ELO is a fair measure. If you want to push your agenda, I think you'd have gotten a terrible seed if I were to adjust elo's, because I think I'd have randomly guessed you're not as good as your elo claims.


for sure I'm not a 2500 elo player, never claimed to be another example of elo being a horrible measure. But thanks for the personal blow which was comepltly off topic and has nothing to do with what I was arguing, never bought up my personal skill into this at all, but your actully proving my point, which is only elo being 100% the reason someone gets seeded, instead of personal knowledge on the player. But hey on the topic on personal shots, your pretty trash at the game for playing for so long, maybe some more h20 coaching is needed for you to break 2200 elo. :) maybe you should humble yourself and talk to people with respect even when your simply losing a argument, anyways I think it's past your bedtime, gn.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:42

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think ELO is a fair measure. If you want to push your agenda, I think you'd have gotten a terrible seed if I were to adjust elo's, because I think I'd have randomly guessed you're not as good as your elo claims.


for sure I'm not a 2500 elo player, never claimed to be another example of elo being a horrible measure. But thanks for the person blow which was comepltly off topic and has nothing to do with what I was arguing, never bought up my personal skill into this at all, but your actully proving my point, which is only elo being 100% the reason someone gets seeded, instead of personal knowledge on the player. But hey on the topic on personal shots, your pretty trash at the game for playing for so long, maybe some more h20 coaching is needed for you to break 2200 elo. :) maybe you should humble yourself and talk to people with respect even when your simply losing a argument, anyways I think it's past your bedtime, gn.

Hmm interesting I offended you and also interesting you'd respond to it like that. I guess that'd be the end of constructive discussion then.

In the end swapping around bracket seeds seems just way too subjective. I'd say that puts way too much power in the hands of media team which is also playing in the tournament usually.

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16 Apr 2017, 23:47

Jerom wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:
Jerom wrote:I think ELO is a fair measure. If you want to push your agenda, I think you'd have gotten a terrible seed if I were to adjust elo's, because I think I'd have randomly guessed you're not as good as your elo claims.


for sure I'm not a 2500 elo player, never claimed to be another example of elo being a horrible measure. But thanks for the person blow which was comepltly off topic and has nothing to do with what I was arguing, never bought up my personal skill into this at all, but your actully proving my point, which is only elo being 100% the reason someone gets seeded, instead of personal knowledge on the player. But hey on the topic on personal shots, your pretty trash at the game for playing for so long, maybe some more h20 coaching is needed for you to break 2200 elo. :) maybe you should humble yourself and talk to people with respect even when your simply losing a argument, anyways I think it's past your bedtime, gn.

Hmm interesting I offended you and also interesting you'd respond to it like that. I guess that'd be the end of constructive discussion then.

In the end swapping around bracket seeds seems just way too subjective. I'd say that puts way too much power in the hands of media team which is also playing in the tournament usually.


in the end your so one demensional as a person and can't see any other view then yours is the reason this argument is over. You didn't offend me, I'm not 2500 elo player, and I can't expect to be after 10 months of playing the game lol. Just expected someone who reads every post on the forums within 2 secs of being posted to be slightly better then a average major with a 2100 elo. Becuase you talk as if you are pr45, with a 2700 elo...and as if you know everything about everything.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:49

Well, do some research about me maybe. I don't really care for petty skill arguments. I just thought you were really 2500 elo and then tried to say that I'd have guessed you were not. So apperantly I'd have guessed that one correctly then, but there would also be cases where I'd guess incorrectly. I think almost every elo needs adjusting at this point. I suppose you could say hey it might be more fair to determine the top32 seeds by elo and then randomly mix those for a random bracket I guess?

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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16 Apr 2017, 23:49

It doesnt matter which method esoc would choose. In the end, there will always be someone disagreeing with the used seeding system.

Elo seeding is the most neutral one and players itself can influence it by simply playing rated games.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:51

Yeah, so when you do a seed by ELO that seems more fair. The brackets don't seem too bad atm anyways, theres just some random ELO outliers I think. Goodspeed for example still clinging on to that rusty elo, but then again in tournaments he seems to perform about that well. It is the perfect opportunity for a miracle jerom run though (Marco - Goodspeed - Lordraphael - Kingofosmane - Kaiserklein and I'd be in the finals haha) so I'm not complaining. Let a man dream aye.

Gichtenlord wrote:Elo seeding is the most neutral one and players itself can influence it by simply playing rated games.

It's kinda rough though, Lordraphael has a worse ELO than Kingofosmane right now for example. With all respect for kingofosmane, that doesn't quite seem accurate now does it.

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16 Apr 2017, 23:56

Jerom wrote:Well, do some research about me maybe. I don't really care for petty skill arguments. I just thought you were really 2500 elo and then tried to say that I'd have guessed you were not. So apperantly I'd have guessed that one correctly then, but there would also be cases where I'd guess incorrectly. I think almost every elo needs adjusting at this point. I suppose you could say hey it might be more fair to determine the top32 seeds by elo and then randomly mix those for a random bracket I guess?


Guess incorrectly? Let's be real there are about 32 or so real players that are pr35+ and that's being generous,(I'm only talking about current active players) in fact I'd say there are about only 8-10 top tier players snowww, prince, mitoe, bsop, raplh h20 etc, 10-15 high level but mid high level around, sompuu, tit, solider etc. and then there's lt col-low colonel...and it's not like if every player in this community who has been around for some time doesn't know every top player in this community. But mixing the top 32 seems like a better solution to me also yes. Elo should be the base but other mu's should be commone sense. Like mitoe and prince of Kabul play each other so early, and before the brakets I would of placed both of them in the semi finals from my personal point of view that's all I'm saying. Mitoe had a lower elo then me going into the seeding but I know for 100% he is a far better aoe3 player then me.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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16 Apr 2017, 23:57

__Uhlan__ wrote:Like mitoe and prince of Kabul play each other so early, and before the brakets I would of placed both of them in the semi finals from my personal point of view that's all I'm saying. Mitoe had a lower elo then me going into the seeding but I know for 100% he is a far better aoe3 player then me.

It's mitoes own fault then that he didnt play rated game and went up to his proper elo.
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16 Apr 2017, 23:59

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Jerom wrote:Well, do some research about me maybe. I don't really care for petty skill arguments. I just thought you were really 2500 elo and then tried to say that I'd have guessed you were not. So apperantly I'd have guessed that one correctly then, but there would also be cases where I'd guess incorrectly. I think almost every elo needs adjusting at this point. I suppose you could say hey it might be more fair to determine the top32 seeds by elo and then randomly mix those for a random bracket I guess?


Guess incorrectly? Let's be real there are about 32 or so real players that are pr35+ and that's being generous,(I'm only talking about current active players) in fact I'd say there are about only 8-10 top tier players snowww, prince, mitoe, bsop, raplh h20 etc, 10-15 high level but mid high level around, sompuu, tit, solider etc. and then there's lt col-low colonel...and it's not like if every player in this community who has been around for some time doesn't know every top player in this community. But mixing the top 32 seems like a better solution to me also yes. Elo should be the base but other mu's should be commone sense. Like mitoe and prince of Kabul play each other so early, and before the brakets I would of placed both of them in the semi finals from my personal point of view that's all I'm saying. Mitoe had a lower elo then me going into the seeding but I know for 100% he is a far better aoe3 player then me.

tbf theres not really much that warrants this credit towards mitoe atm. For all I know, somppu > mitoe in a tournament setting.

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United States of America __Uhlan__
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17 Apr 2017, 00:00

Gichtenlord wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:Like mitoe and prince of Kabul play each other so early, and before the brakets I would of placed both of them in the semi finals from my personal point of view that's all I'm saying. Mitoe had a lower elo then me going into the seeding but I know for 100% he is a far better aoe3 player then me.

It's mitoes own fault then that he didnt play rated game and went up to his proper elo.


Ok, so why should that mess up the seeding? We all know he isn't a 2350 elo player. We can all agree on that atleast right?
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Netherlands Jerom
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17 Apr 2017, 00:02

2400 elo seems reasonable I think. If I had to go full subjective thats what I'd put him at maybe. Mitoe ruined my betting too often with his throws.

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