ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Dsy wrote:Intresting how you say we dont want otto be strong cause its too easy. Japan is easy too and its one of the best civ.
Btw otto is ealready strong too.

Japanese are one of the hardest civilizations in the game, along with Aztecs, British and Indians.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:Yes but in the end you really dont want otto to be the top civ over other "harder" civs I guess. In that aspect for this iteration its fine that otto isnt that amazink.

You certainly don't. Then again you certainly don't with any given civilization...

Please see the post I made in response to Garja above just now.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Dsy »

zoom wrote:
Dsy wrote:Intresting how you say we dont want otto be strong cause its too easy. Japan is easy too and its one of the best civ.
Btw otto is ealready strong too.

Japanese are one of the hardest civilizations in the game, along with Aztecs, British and Indians.


Hard for ya. Easy win for me...
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Yes but in the end you really dont want otto to be the top civ over other "harder" civs I guess. In that aspect for this iteration its fine that otto isnt that amazink.

You certainly don't. Then again you certainly don't with any given civilization...

Please see the post I made in response to Garja above just now.

I mean, given the uncertainity of otto's strength buffing them by a lot could result into them "accidentally" being one of the strongest civs (still relatively balanced ofc) which would be worse for the midtier players since theyd be pretty strong at that level. So with that in mind conservative buffs are especially important when it comes to ottos. Especially when compared to more complex and "harder" civs I guess.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:As you play more you are learning how to play the game, but in the first few games you are only applying strategy concepts you may have learned in other games. As it happens, almost every strategy concept can be applied to Go because it is the most strategically rich game ever invented ;)
It wouldn't be about who can learn faster which is what you would be measuring if you had played multiple games, or about who is smarter which is what you would measure if you both played the game until you couldn't get any better, it's about who has the superior general knowledge of game strategy which is what you measure if you play the game without any prior knowledge of it.

You scared? Garja is up for it
Yeah I dodge, I'm sure garja has already read some things about how to play go, I don't even know the rules atm lol.
Anyway, I have a better aoe3 understanding and a better RTS understanding, dunno what go has to do with this.
I doubt he's read anything, anyway sick dodge.

I can't believe how hard it is to get people to play the best strategy game humanity ever invented :hmm:
It's not hard if "people" are japs, because japs are simply the best strategists humanity ever bred. Come to think of it, actually japs are simply the best human beings in general humanity ever bred.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Yes but in the end you really dont want otto to be the top civ over other "harder" civs I guess. In that aspect for this iteration its fine that otto isnt that amazink.

You certainly don't. Then again you certainly don't with any given civilization...

Please see the post I made in response to Garja above just now.

I mean, given the uncertainity of otto's strength buffing them by a lot could result into them "accidentally" being one of the strongest civs (still relatively balanced ofc) which would be worse for the midtier players since theyd be pretty strong at that level. So with that in mind conservative buffs are especially important when it comes to ottos. Especially when compared to more complex and "harder" civs I guess.

Great point that did not cross my mind before. I agree, in accordance with what I explained about the "middle ground" being thinner in the case of Ottomans.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Dsy wrote:
zoom wrote:
Dsy wrote:Intresting how you say we dont want otto be strong cause its too easy. Japan is easy too and its one of the best civ.
Btw otto is ealready strong too.

Japanese are one of the hardest civilizations in the game, along with Aztecs, British and Indians.


Hard for ya. Easy win for me...
That is definitely true. I'm a terrible jap.
:chinese:
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Goodspeed »

zoom wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I doubt he's read anything, anyway sick dodge.

I can't believe how hard it is to get people to play the best strategy game humanity ever invented :hmm:
It's not hard if "people" are japs, because japs are simply the best strategists humanity ever bred. Come to think of it, actually japs are simply the best human beings in general humanity ever bred.
Makes sense. They did invent Go after all
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

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Post by gibson »

And yet another thread hijacked by Goodspeed circle jerking Go. I would suggest playing PokƩmon Go instead, a much more strategic game.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Goodspeed »

:chinese:
circle jerk
I wish
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

You know, in Sweden they would have banned that smiley 17 years ago for being "a racist caricature".

Damn that :dry: guy must be feeling offended by such racial discrimination!
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Victor_swe »

Damn you offended people!
Dead hunts cant walk....

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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Victor_swe wrote:Damn you offended people!

Is that "damn, you offended people" or "damn you, offended people"??
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by sudmakmak »

Nerf Hard japan. Understand? noob.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:
Victor_swe wrote:Damn you offended people!

Is that "damn, you offended people" or "damn you, offended people"??


it's

"damn you offended, people"
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ā†‘
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by gibson »

Goodspeed wrote::chinese:
circle jerk
I wish

I think Go is the most strategic game ever. Would you agree with me?
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Goodspeed »

Nah, I'm sure some alien race invented one with strategic depth beyond our comprehension. As far as humanity goes though, I would agree :love:
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

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Post by spadel »

Lol this thread contains so much bullshit I cant even believe (and I have only read 6 pages maximum, mostly the "discussion" between garja und umeu)..

I don't wanna go too much into details because most of it was already correctly outlined by umeu (imo). But once again - as umeu has already said multiple times (and goodspeed and some others too I guess) - AOE3 is a strategy game!!! It requires the players to create strategies, be able to adapt them to the individual game settings and try to increase their efficiency for example by optimizing the gathering (basically you can say through macro activities). But AOE3 is NOT !!! a macro game. I can't even believe that something like that is written by a player who has played this game for almost 10 years now. Garja, I strongly suggest that you should watch some TWC recs or even some Nilla recs from AS. Of course the top player's macro was probably a lot worse than the top player's macro today, but one thing you will realize is the huge range of different strategies you will find.

It's a shame that some civs are scaled down today on single strategies that are regarded as "competitive" even by the better players in this community. It's just not true. The problem is that there are so few creative top players left. It's easy to state "there's only one way to play a civ", especially if you can refer to games of H2O for example who seems to be the kind of let's call it "trend-setter" in that subject. But instead of staying open-minded and creating new strategies which might beat the frequently played strategies, like 90% of the people try to imitate the existing one's. I couldn't fucking believe how one after the other player tried to mirror H2O last tournament and played like the exact same build he did. And this at a new patch!!!! With new maps and possibilities!! I just can't understand it. And the worst part, after all is, that new strategies, which have and will be developed, will probably be fked up sooner or later through "balance changes" because most people even at the current top level can't deal with it.

Honestly - I prefer to play a patch with more imbalances (and hence probably more room for creative strategies?) than a patch in which civilizations are assimilated in order to create the "macro" game aoe3 should be...

I don't think I will discuss further about this topic so feel free to flame or ignore my post.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by WickedCossack »

spadel wrote:But instead of staying open-minded and creating new strategies which might beat the frequently played strategies, like 90% of the people try to imitate the existing one's. I couldn't fucking believe how one after the other player tried to mirror H2O last tournament and played like the exact same build he did. And this at a new patch!!!! With new maps and possibilities!! I just can't understand it. And the worst part, after all is, that new strategies, which have and will be developed, will probably by fked up sooner or later through "balance changes" because most people even at the current top level can't deal with it.


Yea I don't understand it either. The problem is when you try they a different build they complain. He told me he refused to play me ever again, after a series of mirrors. Fecking MIRRORS. Just because I use my own strategies. :dry:
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Mimsy for President »

I blame diarouga. :hmm:
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

The creative vs macro (you mean pure mechanics maybe?) argument is just not true. I mean, creativity is totally subjective. You don't have to do a vill rush or turtle FI or w/e super unorthodox strat to be creative. Sometimes just putting together the strenghts of the civ and coming up with a new build is enough to be creative.
Same argument goes with the patch. It is simply not true that civs are being made similar. This is just being paranoid honestly. I mean, just look at the actual changes of the EP. 99% of civs play in the exact same way as the RE patch. Meta hasn't been changed much, and when it is different is mostly due to EP maps granting fair resources as opposed to RE maps (e.g. Sioux raid play being less effective or cheap rushes not straight up winning games).
I suggest to watch Aiz playing whenever you think that the EP is boring.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

spadel wrote:Lol this thread contains so much bullshit I cant even believe (and I have only read 6 pages maximum, mostly the "discussion" between garja und umeu)..

I don't wanna go too much into details because most of it was already correctly outlined by umeu (imo). But once again - as umeu has already said multiple times (and goodspeed and some others too I guess) - AOE3 is a strategy game!!! It requires the players to create strategies, be able to adapt them to the individual game settings and try to increase their efficiency for example by optimizing the gathering (basically you can say through macro activities). But AOE3 is NOT !!! a macro game. I can't even believe that something like that is written by a player who has played this game for almost 10 years now. Garja, I strongly suggest that you should watch some TWC recs or even some Nilla recs from AS. Of course the top player's macro was probably a lot worse than the top player's macro today, but one thing you will realize is the huge range of different strategies you will find.

It's a shame that some civs are scaled down today on single strategies that are regarded as "competitive" even by the better players in this community. It's just not true. The problem is that there are so few creative top players left. It's easy to state "there's only one way to play a civ", especially if you can refer to games of H2O for example who seems to be the kind of let's call it "trend-setter" in that subject. But instead of staying open-minded and creating new strategies which might beat the frequently played strategies, like 90% of the people try to imitate the existing one's. I couldn't fucking believe how one after the other player tried to mirror H2O last tournament and played like the exact same build he did. And this at a new patch!!!! With new maps and possibilities!! I just can't understand it. And the worst part, after all is, that new strategies, which have and will be developed, will probably be fked up sooner or later through "balance changes" because most people even at the current top level can't deal with it.

Honestly - I prefer to play a patch with more imbalances (and hence probably more room for creative strategies?) than a patch in which civilizations are assimilated in order to create the "macro" game aoe3 should be...

I don't think I will discuss further about this topic so feel free to flame or ignore my post.
Hi Pasi; I hope you're well.

While I think yours is a good post and largely agree with you, I would like to emphasize that EP is in no way trying to alter the game to any significant extent. In favor of your view, on the contrary that is precisely what we are trying to avoid, and balance changes, however slight, generally increase options and promote strategic experimentation and evolution of the meta.

I don't see why you would expect anyone to flame or ignore you, although it's regrettable that you seem to.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:The creative vs macro (you mean pure mechanics maybe?) argument is just not true. I mean, creativity is totally subjective. You don't have to do a vill rush or turtle FI or w/e super unorthodox strat to be creative. Sometimes just putting together the strenghts of the civ and coming up with a new build is enough to be creative.
Same argument goes with the patch. It is simply not true that civs are being made similar. This is just being paranoid honestly. I mean, just look at the actual changes of the EP. 99% of civs play in the exact same way as the RE patch. Meta hasn't been changed much, and when it is different is mostly due to EP maps granting fair resources as opposed to RE maps (e.g. Sioux raid play being less effective or cheap rushes not straight up winning games).
I suggest to watch Aiz playing whenever you think that the EP is boring.
Did he ever say that his point applies to EP? I mean his actual point is quite good I think.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by momuuu »

spadel wrote:Lol this thread contains so much bullshit I cant even believe (and I have only read 6 pages maximum, mostly the "discussion" between garja und umeu)..

I don't wanna go too much into details because most of it was already correctly outlined by umeu (imo). But once again - as umeu has already said multiple times (and goodspeed and some others too I guess) - AOE3 is a strategy game!!! It requires the players to create strategies, be able to adapt them to the individual game settings and try to increase their efficiency for example by optimizing the gathering (basically you can say through macro activities). But AOE3 is NOT !!! a macro game. I can't even believe that something like that is written by a player who has played this game for almost 10 years now. Garja, I strongly suggest that you should watch some TWC recs or even some Nilla recs from AS. Of course the top player's macro was probably a lot worse than the top player's macro today, but one thing you will realize is the huge range of different strategies you will find.

It's a shame that some civs are scaled down today on single strategies that are regarded as "competitive" even by the better players in this community. It's just not true. The problem is that there are so few creative top players left. It's easy to state "there's only one way to play a civ", especially if you can refer to games of H2O for example who seems to be the kind of let's call it "trend-setter" in that subject. But instead of staying open-minded and creating new strategies which might beat the frequently played strategies, like 90% of the people try to imitate the existing one's. I couldn't fucking believe how one after the other player tried to mirror H2O last tournament and played like the exact same build he did. And this at a new patch!!!! With new maps and possibilities!! I just can't understand it. And the worst part, after all is, that new strategies, which have and will be developed, will probably be fked up sooner or later through "balance changes" because most people even at the current top level can't deal with it.

Honestly - I prefer to play a patch with more imbalances (and hence probably more room for creative strategies?) than a patch in which civilizations are assimilated in order to create the "macro" game aoe3 should be...

I don't think I will discuss further about this topic so feel free to flame or ignore my post.

Thank you! So true, the top players annoy the absolute shit out of me with their attitude from time to time. Even when you try to bring up a build idea thats legitemately solid or at least seems so they dont even want to try it out.. As if everything was preordained to work in only one specific way.

That being said, the bias in balance changes seems small.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jerom wrote:
spadel wrote:Lol this thread contains so much bullshit I cant even believe (and I have only read 6 pages maximum, mostly the "discussion" between garja und umeu)..

I don't wanna go too much into details because most of it was already correctly outlined by umeu (imo). But once again - as umeu has already said multiple times (and goodspeed and some others too I guess) - AOE3 is a strategy game!!! It requires the players to create strategies, be able to adapt them to the individual game settings and try to increase their efficiency for example by optimizing the gathering (basically you can say through macro activities). But AOE3 is NOT !!! a macro game. I can't even believe that something like that is written by a player who has played this game for almost 10 years now. Garja, I strongly suggest that you should watch some TWC recs or even some Nilla recs from AS. Of course the top player's macro was probably a lot worse than the top player's macro today, but one thing you will realize is the huge range of different strategies you will find.

It's a shame that some civs are scaled down today on single strategies that are regarded as "competitive" even by the better players in this community. It's just not true. The problem is that there are so few creative top players left. It's easy to state "there's only one way to play a civ", especially if you can refer to games of H2O for example who seems to be the kind of let's call it "trend-setter" in that subject. But instead of staying open-minded and creating new strategies which might beat the frequently played strategies, like 90% of the people try to imitate the existing one's. I couldn't fucking believe how one after the other player tried to mirror H2O last tournament and played like the exact same build he did. And this at a new patch!!!! With new maps and possibilities!! I just can't understand it. And the worst part, after all is, that new strategies, which have and will be developed, will probably be fked up sooner or later through "balance changes" because most people even at the current top level can't deal with it.

Honestly - I prefer to play a patch with more imbalances (and hence probably more room for creative strategies?) than a patch in which civilizations are assimilated in order to create the "macro" game aoe3 should be...

I don't think I will discuss further about this topic so feel free to flame or ignore my post.

Thank you! So true, the top players annoy the absolute shit out of me with their attitude from time to time. Even when you try to bring up a build idea thats legitemately solid or at least seems so they dont even want to try it out.. As if everything was preordained to work in only one specific way.

That being said, the bias in balance changes seems small.

That's not true though. They don't try to find new builds but if you give them agood build they will use it lol.
With experience you can know if a build is viable or just bad by reading it.

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