ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Germany lordraphael
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by lordraphael »

iNcog wrote:I would have nerfed Uhlan attack instead of HP, I think I pushed for that but this is from the time when I was still staff and that was ages ago.

I can't remember the exact discussion.

I think the reasoning behind not touching attack was that this is what makes the unit unique and that you would have to nerf hand attack to a far greater extend than hp, to achieve anything.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Hazza54321 »

Uhlan itself isnt a strong unit it was the sheer volume of them in both age 2 and 3. Germany feel absolutely useless vs musk huss compositions in 1v1 and especially2v2 and reven 3v3 to some extent because they lose to hussars so what id suggest would be to have 1 less uhlan per shipment per age
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by iNcog »

^That's just such a huge nerf though.

@lordraphael yeah that sounds about right.

Otherwise I still believe that Germany deserves only a slight nerf; perhaps even none at all. I was an advocate of "boost only" which meant not nerf Germany or French and trying to buff other civilizations to their level instead.

That said, what we have today is still fine, I think that 10 hp is an OK nerf.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

No it's really not an ok nerf, it's real shit for both team and 1v1. Germany already had bad anti-cav, but at least could rely on its uhlans to block enemy cav. Now it has bad anti cav and bad cav. Honestly, except skirms + 9 br, there are no interesting german units left. It's a cav civ, yet you don't want to train wws and uhlans, because both suck now. How retarded is that ? At least buff wws if you keep uhlans that way. Makes no sense right now.
Just do 3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w/700g + 1 uhlan, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 3 ww + 2 uhlans, and 8 uhlans instead of 9 uhlans. It nerfs a bit the amount of uhlans you get (maybe it's not enough of a nerf, but we can just test that) and it also adds strategical depth because you would be able to choose between 600w + 2 uhlans and 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans and 7 skirms + 3 uhlans etc.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Gichtenlord »

Kaiserklein wrote:No it's really not an ok nerf, it's real shit for both team and 1v1. Germany already had bad anti-cav, but at least could rely on its uhlans to block enemy cav. Now it has bad anti cav and bad cav. Honestly, except skirms + 9 br, there are no interesting german units left. It's a cav civ, yet you don't want to train wws and uhlans, because both suck now. How retarded is that ? At least buff wws if you keep uhlans that way. Makes no sense right now.
Just do 3 sw + 1 uhlan, 700w/700g + 1 uhlan, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans, 3 ww + 2 uhlans, and 8 uhlans instead of 9 uhlans. It nerfs a bit the amount of uhlans you get (maybe it's not enough of a nerf, but we can just test that) and it also adds strategical depth because you would be able to choose between 600w + 2 uhlans and 700w + 1 uhlan, 8 skirms + 2 uhlans and 7 skirms + 3 uhlans etc.

Looks better than ulans which die vs anything 1 hit earlier, right now.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Ashvin »

Uhlan were OP? when? why did they get nerfed?
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

It's simple: after ruining the other civilizations Goodspeed is consistently losing to, his attention shifted to Germans. Since they rely chiefly on the Uhlan unit, he astutely concluded that making the unit useless is the best course of action to rectify the unacceptable situation.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Uhlans were kinda op...
Not their stats maybe, but with 7uhlans you could make a lot of dalages.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Ashvin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Uhlans were kinda op...


Try a batch Uhlans against a batch of Huss.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Dsy »

You cry like babies until you cant abuse that much an op civ, which is still op.

3 huss vs 4 uhlans with 180hp scenario -> 1 uhlan left with half hp
600 res vs 600 res

Please move on, thanks!
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by n0el »

Pretty sure one of the patch gurus can explain that -1 uhlan is the same as the hp nerf.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Ashvin »

All 3 Hussars alive one with 2 hp or so. You just owned yourself!

Please move on, thanks!
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by hunter »

Dsy wrote:You cry like babies until you cant abuse that much an op civ, which is still op.

3 huss vs 4 uhlans with 180hp scenario -> 1 uhlan left with half hp
600 res vs 600 res

Please move on, thanks!

You are forgetting 3 huss is 6 pop cost and 4 uhlan is 8 pop cost effectively 4 uhlans still cost more than 3 huss, It's legit that uhlan wins. At equal costs there is no arguing that uhlan is a worse unit and they just made it weaker.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Dsy »

Yeah but german got free uhlan army whithout making any. And for their Xp points they are still beat hussars. Plus if you want gather all details they have 10% more rr.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Dsy wrote:You cry like babies until you cant abuse that much an op civ, which is still op.

3 huss vs 4 uhlans with 180hp scenario -> 1 uhlan left with half hp
600 res vs 600 res

Please move on, thanks!

Uhlans are more expansive because they cost slightly more population space, but mainly because they cost 100 gold. The actual good way to compare uhlans and huss is 6 uhlans vs 5 huss, resources wise. And then, there is 1 huss left with full hp.
So huss now beat uhlans, the problem being that uhlans are also much worse against anything ranged because of their low hp. You see that in team for example, you can't go uhlan/musk vs huss/musk because your uhlans just drop like flies, while huss actually tank.
The main goal of cav is usually to tank at range (that's why it's usually better to send cav HP than cav attack), uhlans don't fulfill that goal. So if they could at least compensate by being better against melee units, which they used to do with 190 hp, it would be nice...
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Dsy »

Garja wrote:This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.


The main question who decide about german sucks or not... XD
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

Play testing will tell.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.
Not really. Germans were considered too good, so Uhlans – being the civilization's most significant unit in virtually all games – were nerfed. Uhlans were considered slightly too good by some, and fine by others. That's not at all why the change is bad though – in fact, that's a completely valid argument in favor of the change.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Dsy wrote:
Garja wrote:This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.


The main question who decide about german sucks or not... XD
@Goodspeed obviously – if he still loses to them, they don't suck; if he doesn't, they do.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Goodspeed »

And I haven't lost a game to Germans in months so I guess they suck :hmm:
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Dsy »

Goodspeed wrote:And I haven't lost a game to Germans in months so I guess they suck :hmm:


Or you havent played any game vs german...
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Goodspeed »

Ah, yes that might be it
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.

Yeah but if there had actually been some testing before the release, we would have seen in a couple games that this change is too hardcore. Sadly there weren't any tests. It's pretty dumb to make a real release of the patch with a bad change like this, while we could have drawn conclusions in 2 days with a bit of testing.
Note that I don't blame anyone, I didn't do jack shit either

Btw uhlans weren't considered slightly too good, germany was considered too good. Its uhlan mass, especially, but not the unit itself.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Garja wrote:This whole argument about low hp is bs. Ulhans are low hp, high attack. Ulhan were considered slightly too good, so they got nerfed. End of the story. If Germans really suck change will be reverted, otherwise it will be kept.

Yeah but if there had actually been some testing before the release, we would have seen in a couple games that this change is too hardcore. Sadly there weren't any tests. It's pretty dumb to make a real release of the patch with a bad change like this, while we could have drawn conclusions in 2 days with a bit of testing.
Note that I don't blame anyone, I didn't do jack shit either

Btw uhlans weren't considered slightly too good, germany was considered too good. Its uhlan mass, especially, but not the unit itself.
This is simply not true. There was testing, albeit hardly extensive. Regardless, the entire idea is to update the patch much earlier than we last did, based on feedback.

The more constructive feedback and corroboration offered, the better and sooner updates may be made.

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