ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

France Kaiserklein
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Lol what, there was hardly any testing for the last release. Maybe like 10 games, and that might even be an overstatement lol.
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Italy Garja
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Btw uhlans weren't considered slightly too good, germany was considered too good. Its uhlan mass, especially, but not the unit itself.

Yes we decided to nerf Germans in the first place. But ulhans were definitely better than hussars. I don't know exactly how they compare to other cav.
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

No, uhlans weren't better than huss. You can see that in 2v2, huss are better in fights because they can snare musks, they can tank at range, etc. Uhlans are just better vs other cav and for raids, but against musks, skirms, goons etc they are worse than huss
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:Lol what, there was hardly any testing for the last release. Maybe like 10 games, and that might even be an overstatement lol.
No, that would be a severe understatement. It is the case that testing was nowhere near sufficient though. Fortunately, due to the light nature of the changes made (with one notable exception), this isn't a significant issue – particularly considering the shorter time anticipated until the next update.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by iNcog »

I think it silly that a member of the ESOC patch team would have issues with the amount of play-testing which took place.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by momuuu »

What is silly is that I, not even a patch member, did far more testing than kaiser.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:I think it silly that a member of the ESOC patch team would have issues with the amount of play-testing which took place.
While I agree, to be fair, Kaiserklein did recently leave the team. To my understanding, he's lacking both tolerance and patience for the balancing process.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by iNcog »

The thing is, leaving never helps anyone.

I can understand why someone would be annoyed with EP (not that I am, just pointing I could eventually see why). You have the opportunity, with the EP, to make things better. You get on the team, you work with the team, you play-test, boom. ESOC is giving people the chance to make things better, the more on board and the more different view-points on AoE3, the better.
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:The thing is, leaving never helps anyone.

I can understand why someone would be annoyed with EP (not that I am, just pointing I could eventually see why). You have the opportunity, with the EP, to make things better. You get on the team, you work with the team, you play-test, boom. ESOC is giving people the chance to make things better, the more on board and the more different view-points on AoE3, the better.
I agree leaving doesn't exactly help, but nor does flaming.

I have sympathy for frustration with the patch though.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

iNcog wrote:I think it silly that a member of the ESOC patch team would have issues with the amount of play-testing which took place.

Kaiserklein wrote:Note that I don't blame anyone, I didn't do jack shit either

And also I'm no more part of the team.

Jerom wrote:What is silly is that I, not even a patch member, did far more testing than kaiser.

Yes that's why I left, I didn't do anything among the team. Partly because I was lazy, partly because no one else really did anything either and I can't test stuff without someone to play against.

I never claimed I was an active tester, so idk what's wrong with you guys.

iNcog wrote:The thing is, leaving never helps anyone.

I can understand why someone would be annoyed with EP (not that I am, just pointing I could eventually see why). You have the opportunity, with the EP, to make things better. You get on the team, you work with the team, you play-test, boom. ESOC is giving people the chance to make things better, the more on board and the more different view-points on AoE3, the better.


Lol. That's a nice utopia.
Meanwhile, in the real world : you want to test stuff but you can't because no one else does (and I'll repeat it again, I know it's also my fault because I wasn't active myself). You argue for changes but it doesn't matter ; there isn't like a poll for a given change to happen, people just say what they think but in the end one change is randomly adopted, while it might not be the best choice (like uhlan nerf, I mean, the community rather thinks we would have to nerf the amount of uhlans instead of their hp, but the change still happened for some reason), probably because everyone's vote doesn't have the same importance. On the Skype chat, you have 500 unread messages and when you read through you see it's mainly garja and diarouga arguing, and zoom making jokes.
So idk where I really had an opportunity to make the patch better, not sure it's really possible. Wonder why both h2o and mitoe don't really give a shit anymore about the patch ?
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by momuuu »

The lesson to be learned is that it needs more testing, although I think that lesson can hardly be learned from this EP release.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by pecelot »

I'm sorry, this thread is definitely too long to keep up with, I have one question, though, that — as far as I'm concerned — was mentioned here already by ovi I guess: do you receive any notifications when other players change stances towards you in diplomacy games? @Aizamk
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:
iNcog wrote:I think it silly that a member of the ESOC patch team would have issues with the amount of play-testing which took place.

Kaiserklein wrote:Note that I don't blame anyone, I didn't do jack shit either

And also I'm no more part of the team.

Jerom wrote:What is silly is that I, not even a patch member, did far more testing than kaiser.

Yes that's why I left, I didn't do anything among the team. Partly because I was lazy, partly because no one else really did anything either and I can't test stuff without someone to play against.

I never claimed I was an active tester, so idk what's wrong with you guys.

iNcog wrote:The thing is, leaving never helps anyone.

I can understand why someone would be annoyed with EP (not that I am, just pointing I could eventually see why). You have the opportunity, with the EP, to make things better. You get on the team, you work with the team, you play-test, boom. ESOC is giving people the chance to make things better, the more on board and the more different view-points on AoE3, the better.


Lol. That's a nice utopia.
Meanwhile, in the real world : you want to test stuff but you can't because no one else does (and I'll repeat it again, I know it's also my fault because I wasn't active myself). You argue for changes but it doesn't matter ; there isn't like a poll for a given change to happen, people just say what they think but in the end one change is randomly adopted, while it might not be the best choice (like uhlan nerf, I mean, the community rather thinks we would have to nerf the amount of uhlans instead of their hp, but the change still happened for some reason), probably because everyone's vote doesn't have the same importance. On the Skype chat, you have 500 unread messages and when you read through you see it's mainly garja and diarouga arguing, and zoom making jokes.
So idk where I really had an opportunity to make the patch better, not sure it's really possible. Wonder why both h2o and mitoe don't really give a shit anymore about the patch ?
There have been plenty of internal polls on specific changes. While it's true that everyone else's opinion doesn't matter as much as Goodspeed's, being the project initiator and lead respectively, he most definitely makes his final decisions based on the opinions of others. I do think that there is far too much of the "my suggestion wasn't adopted, ergo my opinion doesn't matter" victim-sentiment about. To my recollection, I have seen it expressed by virtually every member of the EP team – past and present, and it's neither helpful nor reasonable. People need to come to terms with the impossibility of always having their way. As for why H2O and Mitoe "don't really give a shit anymore about the patch," I suspect it has something to do with them being opposed to the patch's existance in the first place, their inactivity in the second and their unhealty attachment to the Naive-Scout snare in the third.

With that said, It is my firm belief that the EP should more intently take into consideration the reception of specific changes, when selecting them in accordance with the established balancing goals. For example, at this point it is apparent to me that Uhlan cost should have been nerfed over Uhlan hit-points, as it would be both more popular and effective for balancing purposes.

Alas, I cannot with a straight keyboard deny sharing the odd joke, every now and again...
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

It's not just about what I want, but most importantly about what the community wants... I don't feel like most people appreciate the changes. I know I'm always repeating stuff about the german nerf, but most people wanted the amount of free uhlans to be nerfed, instead of its hp, yet it didn't happen that way. Also, the patch aims almost only at balancing 1v1, even though a very vast majority of the games played on EP are team games. We end up having a pretty bad balance for team games while it is in fact the most played game mode, which obviously doesn't make the community happy. We just don't listen enough to what people want.

Idk about H2O, but you're wrong about Mitoe. He does like the idea of a patch. It's not his inactivity that makes him less interested in the ep, it's rather the ep that makes him less active, because he doesn't really like it (btw, iiirc H2O also said recently on a twitch chat that this patch didn't really attract him). And obviously no one even really cares about the scout snare.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by momuuu »

The team players havent really provided amy feedback have they? I tried squeezing it out on multiple instances, never got anything. Port goons, old han, goon rr were all looked at for team balance. The dutch bank cards were removed for team balance, aswell as the 6th bank. Whats getting that much worse about team games precisely? Even the missionary change for spain seems good.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:The team players havent really provided amy feedback have they? I tried squeezing it out on multiple instances, never got anything. Port goons, old han, goon rr were all looked at for team balance. The dutch bank cards were removed for team balance, aswell as the 6th bank. Whats getting that much worse about team games precisely? Even the missionary change for spain seems good.

Well it's mostly a 1v1 patch, we would have had to get in touch with team players earlier to have decent feedback.
Btw some team players do post their thoughts about the ep on ESOC forums.

What's worse with team balance ? Well, I'm actually not sure it's worse, but it's not really better either. Most OP civs are still OP, like japan and ports in 3v3 for example (19 range instead of 20 for jinetes doesn't matter btw). Dutch is now better in 2v2 and worse in 3v3, but it's still a super super good civ. France is still nothing special early on but it's also still really lame in late game. Germany is even more of a useless civ in 3v3. Ottos and sioux are still broken, they don't really have several options. Spain and iro still useless. etc
It's mostly the same as before, which is nothing special. In fact, civs that were not the best at 1v1 are usually good in team, and they are now even better thanks to 1v1 buffs (like ports, russia, dutch for example) and some civs that were bad are still bad, if not worse.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

The EP had atleast one team player that have been asked for for team suggestion (PrinceofKabul).
And I don't think team balance is any worse than RE or than previous patch.
Also team game is inherently unbalanced because there is an emphasys on economy and mobility (due to bigger maps) that is hard to compensate with other advantages.
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

No it's not worse than re, and probs not much worse than last release or even not worse at all. But aren't we looking for improvement lol ? I mean, if you consider that having a balance as good as RE balance is fine for the ep, why make a patch at all ?

I agree that bigger maps is kinda shit because it just makes people want to make more cav and goons which often results in raiding parties, which involves a big part of luck and civ unbalances. Also bigger maps mean people camp more because moving takes more time. But that's actually only the case for 3v3 (a shit game mode anyway tbh). In 2v2s, people rush a lot, actually much more than in 1v1. Probs because mm + a shipment popping from a tc is less scary when you have twice more army than in 1v1, and probs a few other reasons too.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Garja »

Ye 2v2 is more similar to 1v1 and hence probably more balanced than 3v3. Obviously if a team have 2x rush civs or 2 boom civs the potential imbalances grows and that's why team is just inherently more imba than 1v1.
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well, it's not just about growing imbalances. It's also that some civs that don't necessarily rush in 1v1 tend to do so in team. For example, brits are a pretty aggressive civ in 2v2, while it isn't really in 1v1. I guess the reason is that they have a strong musk spam, but spamming only musks isn't very good in 1v1 usually ; also if brit doesn't rush in semi-ff civs in 2v2 it gets raided hard and then the map is too large for a timing push when opponents hit fortress.
I'm saying all this just to show that sometimes 2v2s are just different from 1v1s, not necessarily more imbalanced. But I agree that overall it's less balanced.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by NekoBerk »

French
On top of the (small) scout nerf we decided to also test removing 100f from France's starting crates, as recent trends indicate that they are similar to Germans in overall strength. We expect that the French will still be able to build an early Market or Trading Post and remain a competitive and versatile civilization.


Well... I'm the only person who sometimes start with 100 wood, 300f and 0 gold? it's bad because i can't build an early market or TP :(
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by pecelot »

Normally you'd get 400f + 100w. On EP 2.0 you receive 4 crates upon starting the game: 200f + 100w + 100c, 200f + 200w or 300f + 100w.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by britishmusketeer »

pecelot wrote:Normally you'd get 400f + 100w. On EP 2.0 you receive 4 crates upon starting the game: 200f + 100w + 100c, 200f + 200w or 300f + 100w.

Actually you can get 4 or 5 crates. You can also start with 300f + 200w and 300f + 100w + 100c.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by pecelot »

I'm pretty sure it's not the case, I've personally never seen 200c on EP, unless on Indonesia, Mongolia or some other maps.
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Re: ESOC Patch Update & Tournament Information

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah, you can have 100w 300f, 100w 200f 100g, 100w 300f 100g, 200w 200f or 200w 300f starts. It's the same for all civs, you basically have basis crates of 100w 200f, then to that you add 1 or 2 crates depending on the 5 possible starts : +100f, +100w, +100g, +100w 100f or +100g 100f. It's just that France used to have 100w 300f as a basis, now it has 100w 200f like germany and spain for example.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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