Possible solution to cheating accusation issue

[fightinfrenchman]

So, as most people know, it is against the rules of ESOC to publicly accuse someone of cheating, even if you have proof. There has been much discussion about this rule, and personally I am indifferent towards it. However, there have been multiple people arguing that it should be removed, and frequently people post their accusations in the General section.

So this is just an idea I had to possibly curb the issue: create a separate subforum for cheating accusations, immediately deleting them from any other section. But there would be a very strict rule about this section: you must include a rec of the game. Perhaps commenting in the threads could even be disabled to prevent witchhunting, and users can decide for themselves based on the rec if the person was cheating or not.

Thoughts?

[Kaiserklein]

They are never gonna agree with that because they dont want us to talk about cheats. Too negative.

[DivineFire]

Having a section for this would put the site staff and moderation in an awkward position where we have to arbitrate and make judgement on each of these posts. What happens when the accused appears? Naturally, they'll either ask for the post to be taken down or post in the thread and start swearing at everyone. Then the staff has to decide whether the accusations against that user are just or not. There are already enough critics of our moderation policies that such a section would just create more problems, and the amount of manpower required to moderate a section that is naturally argument-provoking is just not worth it.

While I agree there would be small benefits, it's simply not practical, due to the following issues:
- Requires too much time and effort to moderate
- Turns ESOC staff into arbitrators of cheating accusations
- Opens up staff to more criticism (reasonably, because such arbitration would be hard to get right)
- Creates negative and accusatory environment

Feel free to warn players about cheaters via other channels, but not on ESOC.

This discussion has been had many times before, a section like this is simply never going to exist.

[_NiceKING_]

Probably its better to send proofs of cheating to admins of this website and if, after they analyse the proofs, confirm that a player cheated, they add a player name to cheater list. The cheater list could be put on the left side of the website where everyone can access and see it. It could be a standard document where people cannot comment.

[DivineFire]

Probably its better to send proofs of cheating to admins of this website and if, after they analyse the proofs, confirm that a player cheated, they add a player name to cheater list. The cheater list could be put on the left left of the website where everyone can access and see it. It could be a standard document where people cannot comment.

Same thing I just said, we have to make a decision based on each accusation (which takes time, a lot of time). And when the accused appears they're just going to demand an explanation and get mad.

[fightinfrenchman]

Probably its better to send proofs of cheating to admins of this website and if, after they analyse the proofs, confirm that a player cheated, they add a player name to cheater list. The cheater list could be put on the left left of the website where everyone can access and see it. It could be a standard document where people cannot comment.

Same thing I just said, we have to make a decision based on each accusation (which takes time, a lot of time). And when the accused appears they're just going to demand an explanation and get mad.

But if it was posted publicly couldn't people just decide for themselves?

[DivineFire]

No, because the cheater is going to decide they're not a cheater and get pissed and start swearing at everyone and start making threads about it in random sections since as you say they can't respond in the list itself.

[DivineFire]

And accounts get shuffled all the time between cheaters and non-cheaters and excuses get made and lies are told and rumors spread. And then it's up to the ESOC staff to rule on all of that non-sense which opens us up to WAY more criticism and is a TON of work.

[fightinfrenchman]

And accounts get shuffled all the time between cheaters and non-cheaters and excuses get made and lies are told and rumors spread. And then it's up to the ESOC staff to rule on all of that non-sense which opens us up to WAY more criticism and is a TON of work.

Okay, fair enough.

[_NiceKING_]

well, lets better send the proofs to Microsoft staff then. They still do ban the cheaters if you give them enough proof.

[DivineFire]

That's the correct course of action. There's a link to their staff page in the site rules and it's Plus2Joe who is currently doing the ESO administration.

[iNcog]

Cheating accusations would either be witch hunts versus unpopular people (something that has been rampant on the forums recently, with even mods taking part in it, e.g. @tilanus

notification

vs @thebritish

notification

, @divinefire

notification

vs @metis)

notification

and that's not cool. If cheating accusations had to be done fairly, it would transform the cheating section into a court room and THAT would be a shit-ton of flaming.

OR it would be moderators making calls on peoples' guilt. I can't even begin to imagine how poorly that would be handled by staff and received by users.

Really I don't think cheating accusations will ever find their place on ESOC. The current stance from ESOC is, imo, the correct one.

[fightinfrenchman]

Cheating accusations would either be witch hunts versus unpopular people (something that has been rampant on the forums recently, with even mods taking part in it, e.g. @tilanus

notification

vs @thebritish

notification

, @divinefire

notification

vs @metis)

notification

and that's not cool. If cheating accusations had to be done fairly, it would transform the cheating section into a court room and THAT would be a shit-ton of flaming.

OR it would be moderators making calls on peoples' guilt. I can't even begin to imagine how poorly that would be handled by staff and received by users.

Really I don't think cheating accusations will ever find their place on ESOC. The current stance from ESOC is, imo, the correct one.

Maybe the A414A forums can have a cheaters list haha

[iNcog]

A414A forums are open to pretty much anything. if you want to have a cheaters list there, i wouldn't mind

doubt you'd get much traffic or exposure there

[momuuu]

N3O forums used to have a cheating list (with only drophackers back then) but that forum had an entirely different ambiance really. I never cared to add any of them to a pest list or anything so it seemed pretty useless to me.

The only real way to deal with cheaters is to not care about cheaters.

[iCourt]

Won't solve anything having a cheat list. The only solution is to actively remove cheats. This is where I think the EP failed in a sense. They should have not touched balance right off the bat and focused on developing an anti cheat, bug fixes, and quality of life improvements. It is not as scary to switch between patches when you know it is all the same with just some modern updates. The balance changes may be minimal, but I think the majority of people don't want them. Especially when it feels like it is changing the game too much (Dutch, Iro, and Ports).

Game theory balance is fun but development I see from a different perspective. Everyone in the PR 15-30 level love the maps, and hate the balance changes.

[Zhanson10]

I think this forum is a great place to share the cheaters we come across. I don't think people should be silenced for sharing names

[musketeer925]

I think this forum is a great place to share the cheaters we come across. I don't think people should be silenced for sharing names

That's a fine opinion to have, but unless you can offer solutions to the problems I outlined in the post that Divine quoted above, it's simply not practical.

In every one of these threads, the reasons we don't do it are just ignored, and people say we should allow the threads without addressing the issues.

[iNcog]

Won't solve anything having a cheat list. The only solution is to actively remove cheats. This is where I think the EP failed in a sense. They should have not touched balance right off the bat and focused on developing an anti cheat, bug fixes, and quality of life improvements. It is not as scary to switch between patches when you know it is all the same with just some modern updates. The balance changes may be minimal, but I think the majority of people don't want them. Especially when it feels like it is changing the game too much (Dutch, Iro, and Ports).

Game theory balance is fun but development I see from a different perspective. Everyone in the PR 15-30 level love the maps, and hate the balance changes.

Nah, anti-cheat was a big point of the first patch and it successfully killed off moesbar hack.

Balance changes are mostly good, indeed there are some issues, some need tweaking but afaik from reading the patch forums, those are being amended in a positive way. I think Ports are now fun and viable, personally. Can't speak for Dutch or Iroq.

Most people love the maps, but there are some more unique maps which are less liked.

I completely and entirely agree that the lacking point of the first patch iteration is the quality of life and bug fixes. That is why I am ready to take up arms in your name to get your work included in the next patch. I might play iroq just because it looks cool to have tomahawks throw.. well, tomahawks!

[Zhanson10]

Ok so ban "witch hunts" whatever you mean by that, and moderators commenting on cheaters. Allow people to say what they want about other people cheating. It's not meant to target people, it's meant to share with others a warning so that others might not have their time wasted by cheaters

[iNcog]

Allow people to say what they want about other people cheating.

Unfortunately that's exactly what we mean by witch hunt. Users targeting other users with cheating accusations.

[_NiceKING_]

Btw is droptrick still possible on EP?

[Zhanson10]

I'm all for people being able to say what they want, as long as there is no spam or threats being made. Censoring bad words and accusations is a waste or your time and our time

[iNcog]

I'm all for people being able to say what they want, as long as there is no spam or threats being made. Censoring bad words and accusations is a waste or your time and our time

Well then you need more staff power to moderate the crap out of that section. Which ESOC currently doesn't have, since they can barely moderate the forums they already have properly. I just really don't think it's worth it for anyone. Please try to understand. ^^

[musketeer925]

I'm all for people being able to say what they want, as long as there is no spam or threats being made. Censoring bad words and accusations is a waste or your time and our time

So how does the staff respond if the accused appears? Undoubtedly, that user will be angry and request the accusations be removed, and also likely to make disgruntled posts all over the forum, ban dodge, etc. Having that kind of content produces angry users, and angry users make the forum much harder to moderate.