The Council's program

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Re: The Council's program

Post by tedere12 »

Council Patch?
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Re: The Council's program

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Any help is appreciated, I'd imagine, but you can also do it as normal users, not necessarily emphasise every time that you belong to that creature. Ranks should not matter!
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Re: The Council's program

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Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps it wasnt a good idea to have someone who was previously banned to represent the council. While the council may not be good at putting forward their ideas and havent had clean records, i fully stand by their decisions. We are currently play testing RE match ups with spadel, cramper, diarouga nobumanteikoku and (sometimes blackstar plays and recs but isnt in on this) , on ep maps as we feel its best to go back to the beginning rather than rebuffing a civ that was previously nerfed into the ground. We currently have a rec pack of around 70 recs of controversial MUs and have a list of 25 more matchs that are planning to be tested. Imo ep shouldve had playtesting rather than having a random idea about how to balance a civ and praying it works. Ep balance may be better in some regard but it really messes with the civ design. For example ports should be on the defensive fighting for map control, not taking complete map control with 3+ atp stagecoach tps. Im not hating on ep, however playtesting is the true way of fixing balance/making balance as good as it could be. Either way, a few of us have decided to playtest as many match ups as possible that have some disagreement amongst us and the community. We therefore appreciate if youd listen to our ideas and see whether you agree with them or not (except the basement and sometimes mimsy :D), the council is just looking to improve balance, however it may be poorly put across because mimsy and dia are french. Testers are welcome, however to make it more precise they need to be good enough to beat other testers in unbalanced match ups
We didn't change Port civ design, rather we overbuffed them which made them so strong that they can play any style they want. That'll change next iteration.

It would be much more useful if you played these test games on the current version of EP, or on our closed betas. Are you open to that?
Either way I'd appreciate it if you shared any conclusions you collectively draw.

But this seems off topic?
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Hazza54321 »

Goodspeed wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps it wasnt a good idea to have someone who was previously banned to represent the council. While the council may not be good at putting forward their ideas and havent had clean records, i fully stand by their decisions. We are currently play testing RE match ups with spadel, cramper, diarouga nobumanteikoku and (sometimes blackstar plays and recs but isnt in on this) , on ep maps as we feel its best to go back to the beginning rather than rebuffing a civ that was previously nerfed into the ground. We currently have a rec pack of around 70 recs of controversial MUs and have a list of 25 more matchs that are planning to be tested. Imo ep shouldve had playtesting rather than having a random idea about how to balance a civ and praying it works. Ep balance may be better in some regard but it really messes with the civ design. For example ports should be on the defensive fighting for map control, not taking complete map control with 3+ atp stagecoach tps. Im not hating on ep, however playtesting is the true way of fixing balance/making balance as good as it could be. Either way, a few of us have decided to playtest as many match ups as possible that have some disagreement amongst us and the community. We therefore appreciate if youd listen to our ideas and see whether you agree with them or not (except the basement and sometimes mimsy :D), the council is just looking to improve balance, however it may be poorly put across because mimsy and dia are french. Testers are welcome, however to make it more precise they need to be good enough to beat other testers in unbalanced match ups
We didn't change Port civ design, rather we overbuffed them which made them so strong that they can play any style they want. That'll change next iteration.

It would be much more useful if you played these test games on the current version of EP, or on our closed betas. Are you open to that?
Either way I'd appreciate it if you shared any conclusions you collectively draw.

But this seems off topic?

Thank you.
Referring to the play testing on re, like I briefly covered in my post, we want to start it from the beginning, rather than for example iro and sioux, which we nerfed into the ground, it makes no sense to nerf a civ to the ground and then rebuff, instead we think we should propose a different change altogether.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by deleted_user0 »

ep sioux has hardly been nerfed into the ground tho. the reason why theyre weaker on ep than on re is because of the maps and because the civs which were weaker vs sioux got buffed mostly. the br nerf was totally justified
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Re: The Council's program

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umeu wrote:ep sioux has hardly been nerfed into the ground tho. the reason why theyre weaker on ep than on re is because of the maps and because the civs which were weaker vs sioux got buffed mostly. the br nerf was totally justified

we suspect sioux wasnt that good on re also, like i said in my above posts weve been testing re balance on ep maps, and are coming to the conclusion sioux isnt all that strong.
I was mostly referring to iro, however -30hp on their main unit is a pretty big nerf :p
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Re: The Council's program

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Hazza54321 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps it wasnt a good idea to have someone who was previously banned to represent the council. While the council may not be good at putting forward their ideas and havent had clean records, i fully stand by their decisions. We are currently play testing RE match ups with spadel, cramper, diarouga nobumanteikoku and (sometimes blackstar plays and recs but isnt in on this) , on ep maps as we feel its best to go back to the beginning rather than rebuffing a civ that was previously nerfed into the ground. We currently have a rec pack of around 70 recs of controversial MUs and have a list of 25 more matchs that are planning to be tested. Imo ep shouldve had playtesting rather than having a random idea about how to balance a civ and praying it works. Ep balance may be better in some regard but it really messes with the civ design. For example ports should be on the defensive fighting for map control, not taking complete map control with 3+ atp stagecoach tps. Im not hating on ep, however playtesting is the true way of fixing balance/making balance as good as it could be. Either way, a few of us have decided to playtest as many match ups as possible that have some disagreement amongst us and the community. We therefore appreciate if youd listen to our ideas and see whether you agree with them or not (except the basement and sometimes mimsy :D), the council is just looking to improve balance, however it may be poorly put across because mimsy and dia are french. Testers are welcome, however to make it more precise they need to be good enough to beat other testers in unbalanced match ups
We didn't change Port civ design, rather we overbuffed them which made them so strong that they can play any style they want. That'll change next iteration.

It would be much more useful if you played these test games on the current version of EP, or on our closed betas. Are you open to that?
Either way I'd appreciate it if you shared any conclusions you collectively draw.

But this seems off topic?

Thank you.
Referring to the play testing on re, like I briefly covered in my post, we want to start it from the beginning, rather than for example iro and sioux, which we nerfed into the ground, it makes no sense to nerf a civ to the ground and then rebuff, instead we think we should propose a different change altogether.
So I take it you're not willing to test our current closed beta?
Just so happens we can use more active play testers.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by deleted_user0 »

yea but that unit was way overpowered tbh. and actually, sioux is better off making axerider wakina in many mu's anyway, and if you do add BR in that case, they shouldnt be touched and their dps remains the same so theyre still great if you have a meatshield. pure BR was just a joke.

but ye i agree about iro. we should probably just keep changes as minimal as possible with them.
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Re: The Council's program

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umeu wrote:yea but that unit was way overpowered tbh. and actually, sioux is better off making axerider wakina in many mu's anyway, and if you do add BR in that case, they shouldnt be touched and their dps remains the same so theyre still great if you have a meatshield. pure BR was just a joke.

but ye i agree about iro. we should probably just keep changes as minimal as possible with them.

yeah but sioux was so one dimensional because of this reason, one thing was overpowered the rest was shit which is why we consider giving them something like a wakina range buff
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Hazza54321 »

Goodspeed wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Thank you.
Referring to the play testing on re, like I briefly covered in my post, we want to start it from the beginning, rather than for example iro and sioux, which we nerfed into the ground, it makes no sense to nerf a civ to the ground and then rebuff, instead we think we should propose a different change altogether.
So I take it you're not willing to test our current closed beta?
Just so happens we can use more active play testers.

not sure yet, ill talk with the others, probably unlikely though :/
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Re: The Council's program

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Post by sdsanft »

@hazza54321 finally I understand what's going on. I actually fully support this though I wish you guys could work with EP team somehow
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Re: The Council's program

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Post by Darwin_ »

I like Hazzarov's idea of starting from scratch
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Re: The Council's program

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tedere12 wrote:Council Patch?


Basement Patch
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Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

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Re: The Council's program

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Darwin_ wrote:I like Hazzarov's idea of starting from scratch

Same. A big part of the current beta is undoing other changes. Why not start over?
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Hazza54321 »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I like Hazzarov's idea of starting from scratch

Same. A big part of the current beta is undoing other changes. Why not start over?

is this sarcasm or?
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Darwin_ »

Lol I cant tell
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Re: The Council's program

Post by zoom »

Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps it wasnt a good idea to have someone who was previously banned to represent the council. While the council may not be good at putting forward their ideas and havent had clean records, i fully stand by their decisions. We are currently play testing RE match ups with spadel, cramper, diarouga nobumanteikoku and (sometimes blackstar plays and recs but isnt in on this) , on ep maps as we feel its best to go back to the beginning rather than rebuffing a civ that was previously nerfed into the ground. We currently have a rec pack of around 70 recs of controversial MUs and have a list of 25 more matchs that are planning to be tested. Imo ep shouldve had playtesting rather than having a random idea about how to balance a civ and praying it works. Ep balance may be better in some regard but it really messes with the civ design. For example ports should be on the defensive fighting for map control, not taking complete map control with 3+ atp stagecoach tps. Im not hating on ep, however playtesting is the true way of fixing balance/making balance as good as it could be. Either way, a few of us have decided to playtest as many match ups as possible that have some disagreement amongst us and the community. We therefore appreciate if youd listen to our ideas and see whether you agree with them or not (except the basement and sometimes mimsy :D), the council is just looking to improve balance, however it may be poorly put across because mimsy and dia are french. Testers are welcome, however to make it more precise they need to be good enough to beat other testers in unbalanced match ups
First, you express your active choice to play-test specifically not on the EP, and the great importance of play-testing. Then, you express a perceived lack of play-testing for the EP, and a desire to help improve the patch. I find this counter-intuitive and perplexing. I must be misunderstanding you, somehow.

1. EP has had play-testing from the start – externally and internally. I'm sure everyone agrees with more always being better, though. 2. Furthermore, I'm sure even Goodspeed himself would gladly listen to your ideas if you would play-test on EP – out of intelligence and self-interest. Although he would be lacking self-interest, he might even listen to your ideas if you don't play-test on EP – out of kindness.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by zoom »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I like Hazzarov's idea of starting from scratch

Same. A big part of the current beta is undoing other changes. Why not start over?
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:I like Hazzarov's idea of starting from scratch

Same. A big part of the current beta is undoing other changes. Why not start over?

is this sarcasm or?

No, I'm talking about the current closed beta.
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Re: The Council's program

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zoom wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:perhaps it wasnt a good idea to have someone who was previously banned to represent the council. While the council may not be good at putting forward their ideas and havent had clean records, i fully stand by their decisions. We are currently play testing RE match ups with spadel, cramper, diarouga nobumanteikoku and (sometimes blackstar plays and recs but isnt in on this) , on ep maps as we feel its best to go back to the beginning rather than rebuffing a civ that was previously nerfed into the ground. We currently have a rec pack of around 70 recs of controversial MUs and have a list of 25 more matchs that are planning to be tested. Imo ep shouldve had playtesting rather than having a random idea about how to balance a civ and praying it works. Ep balance may be better in some regard but it really messes with the civ design. For example ports should be on the defensive fighting for map control, not taking complete map control with 3+ atp stagecoach tps. Im not hating on ep, however playtesting is the true way of fixing balance/making balance as good as it could be. Either way, a few of us have decided to playtest as many match ups as possible that have some disagreement amongst us and the community. We therefore appreciate if youd listen to our ideas and see whether you agree with them or not (except the basement and sometimes mimsy :D), the council is just looking to improve balance, however it may be poorly put across because mimsy and dia are french. Testers are welcome, however to make it more precise they need to be good enough to beat other testers in unbalanced match ups
First, you express your active choice to play-test specifically not on the EP, and the great importance of play-testing. Then, you express a perceived lack of play-testing for the EP, and a desire to help improve the patch. I find this counter-intuitive and perplexing. I must be misunderstanding you, somehow.

1. EP has had play-testing from the start – externally and internally. I'm sure everyone agrees with more always being better, though. 2. Furthermore, I'm sure even Goodspeed himself would gladly listen to your ideas if you would play-test on EP – out of intelligence and self-interest. Although he would be lacking self-interest, he might even listen to your ideas if you don't play-test on EP – out of kindness.

as i said before, we feel the best balance is re balance on esoc maps. Therefore we think this is the best starting point to playtest. The reason why is because the lower civs on re which were dutch port, can be able to have more options and be able to do more economic builds because theres actually hunts and mines on the map. Similarly iro and otto have indirectly been nerfed due to better maps meaning some MUs arent as much walkovers as they used to be.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by pecelot »

But how would you imagine it working? Would you release yet another patch to divide the community even more? I'm not overly concerned about your future plans for obvious reasons, but I think it would be better to — at least at some point in time — suggest your changes upon a debate to the ESOC Patch Team to draw conclusions together.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Darwin_ »

I think that that assessment is more or less accurate. I do think that the current EP and RE are roughly equal in terms of balance, on ESOC maps.

However, a lot of people, not just you Hazza, talk about how bad EP iro and sioux are. While I think that that is accurate, I would like to point out that almost no one, with a few notable exceptions, played those civs because they liked them. Rather, most people just played them because at one time or another, they were strong. Now, I ask you what the duty of a patch would be regarding those civs: make them "enjoyable" to play, or to make them balanced?
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Re: The Council's program

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I guess they played enough to draw such conclusions...
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Post by Hazza54321 »

pecelot wrote:But how would you imagine it working? Would you release yet another patch to divide the community even more? I'm not overly concerned about your future plans for obvious reasons, but I think it would be better to — at least at some point in time — suggest your changes upon a debate to the ESOC Patch Team to draw conclusions together.

we do not plan to split the community even further, we plan to put our ideas across to ep team which, no offense intended, half the ep dont even play, and be recognised as active players than play these MUs daily.
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Re: The Council's program

Post by Hazza54321 »

Darwin_ wrote:I think that that assessment is more or less accurate. I do think that the current EP and RE are roughly equal in terms of balance, on ESOC maps.

However, a lot of people, not just you Hazza, talk about how bad EP iro and sioux are. While I think that that is accurate, I would like to point out that almost no one, with a few notable exceptions, played those civs because they liked them. Rather, most people just played them because at one time or another, they were strong. Now, I ask you what the duty of a patch would be regarding those civs: make them "enjoyable" to play, or to make them balanced?

people didnt play them because they were either too strong or too weak or too lame or w.e, i myself didnt play them because they were too lame on re maps and thought they made boring games. Also civs like iro and otto have a low skill cap and therefore you dont really improve. Apart from umeu, how many iro players are actually decent at the game?

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