Chinese age 1 TP?

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China fei123456
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Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by fei123456 »

I posted this some days ago, but the topic was lost due to server breakdown.

My ideas:
1. China has 300w start, which is "luxury" in current TP meta. See how powerful iro/otto is.
2. However, if China build a start TP, you can't send 3v (refugee). 2v is awkward.

And I tried 300f start after that.
Pros: with start TP you can get 300f relative fast, thus reaching age 2 at around 4:00 which is insane. And a start TP brings you lots of shipments after that.
Cons: bad eco. Without 3v you can't have 1200f300g when your 700g arrives, and FF becomes impossible. And you'll lose your TP ofc.

So 300f means you have to play colonial for a while. Possible choices:
1. unit shipment first. This may be useful against some very early rushes (otto/india etc), or you can surprise your opponent in a few cases.
2. 700w-600w-stagecoach boom. if you have an upgraded TP route, you'll have far better eco than 3v start.
3. 700w-300e-long term colonial play. Actually Chinese age 2 is bad, but not "unplayable".

However, 300f is still a bad choice, considering such a low VS it represents. So is there some different choices?
1. refugee 2v. Sounds awkward compared to 3v, but not that bad?
2. sumptuary law? 0.3f/s (0.4v), 0/15w/s (0.3v), 0.3g/s (0.5v), 0.15e/s (5v), and 0.15xp/s. Seems worse than 2v, but 0.15e/s is really good. So is it available?
3. 300w. Two variances:
3.1 build a village first, when 300w arrives, build 2 TPs.
3.2 build a start TP, don't chop. Age up with 10p, and build a village and 2nd TP with 300w crates.
Calculation: 25*(6+7+8+9)*0.84-400+200=430. That is, when your 10th vill come out you will have 430f.
900-430=470, 470/10/0.84=56. So you have to skip your vill production for about 1 min. Bad. So 3.2 is not available, while 3.1 sounds not bad.

So, if you wanna FF, send refugee or sumptuary law. If you can play colonial for a while, 300w>300f.

My questions:
1. Is a start TP good?
2. If I have a start TP, should I FF, or play colonial?
FF: you have your strong age 3 army. But you'll lose your TP.
Colonial: you can keep your TP route or even do a stagecoach boom. But you may not have a chance to go age 3 after that.
3. If I FF, 2v or trickle?
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by deleted_user0 »

tp start is good, u just send 2 vils. its fine, it will not siginificantly slow down your age up. The thing people forget is this, if you make a tp, you get your first shipment usually 30 sec faster, and on some maps even 45 sec faster (around 1.15-1.30 instead of 1.45-2.00) so yes, you ship 1 vil less, but 2 vils are gathering much sooner. So your age up to age2 isn't delayed by much if at all. And after that, the extra shipment you got from the early tp is going to represent more value than that 1 vill could gather. There is a drawback to this strat, you will only have 30 pop, instead of 50, which can mean you will get housed if early agression manages to siege that village down. On the upside, you can defend early agression easier because you have an extra shipment and can now send like 700c 8ckn/9pike 700w. Even if you don't get attacked early, that 1 less village can be a little bit awkward if you dont chop for an extra village in transition to age3.

300f is bad, sumptuary laws seems bad. 300w can be an option in some mu's on some maps.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by sebnan12 »

im hardly against 1 village if u ff cauz the chances for losing a village is always very high and the tp gona be lost tho if hes not defendable.. so imo 2 villages when ff
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by lemmings121 »

I tried the 1tp+house start, 2v for a bit. For a FF it doest feel good. the 30pop is a bit restricting, i coulndt find a propper build.
but for colonial play, I actually find it better then standard, just get 700w first, a starting tp has a lot of value in this case.

I don't like 300w or other options, 2v isnt great, but i guess its necessary.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by sebnan12 »

exactly what lemming said +1
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by deleted_user0 »

lemmings121 wrote:I tried the 1tp+house start, 2v for a bit. For a FF it doest feel good. the 30pop is a bit restricting, i coulndt find a propper build.
but for colonial play, I actually find it better then standard, just get 700w first, a starting tp has a lot of value in this case.

I don't like 300w or other options, 2v isnt great, but i guess its necessary.


its also good for ff and for greedy fi's too. cuz when you fi u can send either 600w and grab tp line or send 300 xport and get german trickles (wood + food which are exactly what u need for old han)

with a normal ff you can also get the tp in transition to age2, but only really vs non-agressive civs.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by deleted_user0 »

sebnan12 wrote:im hardly against 1 village if u ff cauz the chances for losing a village is always very high and the tp gona be lost tho if hes not defendable.. so imo 2 villages when ff


shouldnt lose it tbh, because you can defend it vs aggression easily now, and you can also easily adapt and do a semi ff. if the aggression hits so fast and hard that you would lose a village, tbh you shouldn't be doing a straight ff.

the only time i would go for 2 villages over village + tp is when there is alot of livestock on the map.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by fei123456 »

a TP into FF means your opponent kills your tp with 0 lost. 5 pike can do this easily. this is quite awkward.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by deleted_user0 »

by the time the tp dies it will have paid for itself, and you can usually defend a tp without trouble vs semi ff civs. just mm + disciple
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

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Post by __Uhlan__ »

tp > 1 vill it creates this timing if you can 8 cho ko 9 pike 300e (Cossacks) or 7 steppe, that you can break almost any fb. (Including Russia) not sure about azzy but I've tested it and then after you break there bh you send 700c and age with tp/market and good eco. Works especially good on qs maps. Even if you straight ff tp lets you send 2 vill 700c 9pike or 8 bow 700w which if it saves you from being idled or losing a vill it's actully better ecowise then. Id almost always tp unless like umeu said there is livestock and you expect to get more then 4 cows.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by Darwin_ »

TP is only ok on maps and matchups that dictate passive play. I believe you can do TP start, 300w first and send northern refugees 2nd and still have a shipment when you hit colonial, if you do the mitoe no 700c, no vill on the wonder build.

I could also see a case where you could do a super-greedy ff, with tp+village start, 300w first, sumptuary laws, 300e then 700w, using the 300w for another village and a consulate, then getting trickles with the 300e from the german consulate. Just a crazy idea though, and probably extremely situational, if good at all.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Darwin_ wrote:TP is only ok on maps and matchups that dictate passive play. I believe you can do TP start, 300w first and send northern refugees 2nd and still have a shipment when you hit colonial, if you do the mitoe no 700c, no vill on the wonder build.


lol again example of you have no idea what your talking about a tp actully is great against a rush way better then another vill and 20 pop. What use is the vill in the tc? Tp lets you send units and semi ff pretty comfortable with a shipment still when you hit fortress.
In passive mu's is where the tp/village debate gets interesting but even then if the map doesn't have livestock I always tp.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by Darwin_ »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:TP is only ok on maps and matchups that dictate passive play. I believe you can do TP start, 300w first and send northern refugees 2nd and still have a shipment when you hit colonial, if you do the mitoe no 700c, no vill on the wonder build.


lol again example of you have no idea what your talking about a tp actully is great against a rush way better then another vill and 20 pop. What use is the vill in the tc? Tp lets you send units and semi ff pretty comfortable with a shipment still when you hit fortress.
In passive mu's is where the tp/village debate gets interesting but even then if the map doesn't have livestock I always tp.

Legit every time I have rushed china and they did TP and refugees, I have done way better and won way more decisively. All you have to do is siege their village and you've practically won, because they can't train vills or ship units.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Darwin_ wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:TP is only ok on maps and matchups that dictate passive play. I believe you can do TP start, 300w first and send northern refugees 2nd and still have a shipment when you hit colonial, if you do the mitoe no 700c, no vill on the wonder build.


lol again example of you have no idea what your talking about a tp actully is great against a rush way better then another vill and 20 pop. What use is the vill in the tc? Tp lets you send units and semi ff pretty comfortable with a shipment still when you hit fortress.
In passive mu's is where the tp/village debate gets interesting but even then if the map doesn't have livestock I always tp.

Legit every time I have rushed china and they did TP and refugees, I have done way better and won way more decisively. All you have to do is siege their village and you've practically won, because they can't train vills or ship units.


Well the people you play don't know how to defend then, rushing china isn't even really viable unless your Russia/Azzy/Otto and even as Russia I don't think its very good.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by Darwin_ »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:
lol again example of you have no idea what your talking about a tp actully is great against a rush way better then another vill and 20 pop. What use is the vill in the tc? Tp lets you send units and semi ff pretty comfortable with a shipment still when you hit fortress.
In passive mu's is where the tp/village debate gets interesting but even then if the map doesn't have livestock I always tp.

Legit every time I have rushed china and they did TP and refugees, I have done way better and won way more decisively. All you have to do is siege their village and you've practically won, because they can't train vills or ship units.


Well the people you play don't know how to defend then, rushing china isn't even really viable unless your Russia/Azzy/Otto and even as Russia I don't think its very good.

Rushing china is extremely viable if they went TP start. I have even won in that situation rushing with brits, spain, and france.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by jesus3 »

This is actually an interesting thread (to me) for once, I think that decision has to be made according to your opponents civ (and playstyle if you know it). If you're sure to only get a 4-5 cav semi pressure and you wont lose your only village, that tp start is worth it. those 200w in transition should be more than doable. But if, as already pointed out by you guys, the opponent puts on real colonial pressure, this could result in an awkward position.

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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Like I said you can't base it off rushing a 2nd lt who doesn't know how to defend.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by gibson »

__Uhlan__ wrote:Like I said you can't base it off rushing a 2nd lt who doesn't know how to defend.
i won Dutch vs brit doing skirm rush once, so that means Dutch skirm rush beats brit right!?!?!
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

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brith
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by Darwin_ »

__Uhlan__ wrote:Like I said you can't base it off rushing a 2nd lt who doesn't know how to defend.

You have a point, but look at this objectively. China only has one village if they start TP and don't chop for one in transition. That one village is their only source of population space, and if it goes down before they can ship units or if 700w is a fair ways off, china is screwed. Also, with only one village, they can't really start war academy and train units and well as ship some, as they just wont have the population for it. And you could just chop for a village in transition, but that means you are down around 320 food or around 240 coin, making your fortress time significantly slower. TP build is just sub-optimal against rushes IMO, and I have only seen it be viable in passive games.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

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Post by Mitoe »

Basically agree with everything Umeu/Uhlan said so far. TP start is just way better unless there are a lot of livestock, in which case 2nd village is better just because you can spend more time walking around picking up livestock.

@Darwin_ TP start is way better against aggression. You don't send 700w first, that's just super pointless as China. If you have the time to send 700w as your first card then you screwed up because you could have been fortress with 700c first. If you have to play age 2, you're going to be sending units first no matter what.

Basically if you're playing age 2 with TP + Village you put 4v on wonder, 5v on food, rest on wood. The only reason you have 5v on food is to maintain vill production. Once you're close to aging, you move almost all of your food vills to wood, then build a 2nd village and use the 400f from age up to produce villagers and maybe disciples or MM if you need them. You build a rax after your 2nd village and your card order should be something like 8 bow 9 pike then either 7 steppe or 700w. After this you can send either 700c to age, 300x for units, or 700w/7 Steppe depending on which one you've already send earlier.

As long as you build that 2nd village before you build your rax you'll have no problem with getting housed or anything, and you'll have ~3-4 shipments back to back in age 2 so your early mass will be quite strong as well. The only problem is if you actually get trapped in age 2 and can't age easily then you're probably going to lose because China's mid and late Colonial is among the worst in the game.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by jesus3 »

thanks mitoe that was helpful
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Darwin_ wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:Like I said you can't base it off rushing a 2nd lt who doesn't know how to defend.

You have a point, but look at this objectively. China only has one village if they start TP and don't chop for one in transition. That one village is their only source of population space, and if it goes down before they can ship units or if 700w is a fair ways off, china is screwed. Also, with only one village, they can't really start war academy and train units and well as ship some, as they just wont have the population for it. And you could just chop for a village in transition, but that means you are down around 320 food or around 240 coin, making your fortress time significantly slower. TP build is just sub-optimal against rushes IMO, and I have only seen it be viable in passive games.


here's a small rec pack to show you how to play tp china vs aggression. then just picture how china would deal with said aggression when they have 1 card less.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by ListlessSalmon »

Thanks for the pack Umeu, replays from strong players always appreciated :smile:.

Though you did kinda just teach everyone that if you somewhat condescendingly explain the game to people with twice your pr you'll be rewarded by replays.
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Re: Chinese age 1 TP?

Post by __Uhlan__ »

ListlessSalmon wrote:Thanks for the pack Umeu, replays from strong players always appreciated :smile:.

Though you did kinda just teach everyone that if you somewhat condescendingly explain the game to people with twice your pr you'll be rewarded by replays.


Well it's kinda obvious not to try and prove 3 pr35+ players wrong as a lower level player :P

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