How to beat the China FF deathball?

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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by fei123456 »

Wait, why should IRO do semiff vs China?!
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by tedere12 »

re iro can kill china with the bb toma rush, since china ages so late and its hard for them to defend.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Darwin_ »

samurai or dopps
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by noissance »

If you cant rush them, you'd want to outmass them and fight the cav in an area where pathing is messed up (trees).
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by fei123456 »

if you're playing iro.... just play as in RE. build an early TP (you lose 200w but get 200f so it's about the same), do stagecoach boom, then spam from wh+stable 5+5.
or just do a 4-7-6-6 all-in rush.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Couprider wrote:Wait, why should IRO do semiff vs China?!


Cuzits so oppppp :kinggreen: :maniac:
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Garja »

Colonial is risky and doesn't really work on EP vs China. Just use the general strat counter-system: ff > rush, semi ff > ff, rush > semi ff.
Also don't expect to get a free win with Iro on EP. This MU is not that unbalanced I think.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by fei123456 »

Garja wrote:Colonial is risky and doesn't really work on EP vs China. Just use the general strat counter-system: ff > rush, semi ff > ff, rush > semi ff.
Also don't expect to get a free win with Iro on EP. This MU is not that unbalanced I think.

it doesnt make a big difference. 200f is not too far away from 200w. you can just chop for a TP in age 1, age up 16p, and do everything you did in RE.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Oos also wins
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Garja »

Eh 200w is 336f, plus 40f or so of walking time. You can't really age up in time without some substantial treasure help (that you don't know in advance). Plus you don't get the first pass anyway so your age1 TP isn't as valuable as the RE one. Also a full 25 seconds delayed rush isn't as effective, especially when the only really scary thing of Iro rush is that it is very fast.
I think you can hold most if not all rushes with proper version of China FF. And not to mention you can always stay colo if you know the opponent is committed to rush. With semi FF you're on par on everything and still retain the advantage of dictating the game.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Darwin_ »

I think putting on some pressure and making a giant musk mass to kill their death ball as brits is a decent option. Just need to kill them or deny their mines before they can get out iron troops.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by tedere12 »

how does rush>semi ff, the reason you make units in many semi ff builds is to protect yourself from a rush because you are in danger of losing infrastructure/vills/getting idles
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by pecelot »

and how is naked FF supposed to counter rush
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Garja »

tedere12 wrote:how does rush>semi ff, the reason you make units in many semi ff builds is to protect yourself from a rush because you are in danger of losing infrastructure/vills/getting idles

No, that's actually a misconception. The reason to prefer semi FF over FF is twofold:
- to beat an FF, assuming that the starting units let you control the game (raid, killing the TP, denying a possible FF fb, getting an eco edge with early steel traps and vill card, etc.) while being on par with the age;
- to turn the FF build into colonial in case of some semi aggressive colonial strat. This was particularly true on RE were colonial boom (e.g brit musk huss) would usually beat a semi FF (e.g French semi). On EP due to resource distribution and early TP profitability semi FF seems to beat colo play more times than not (or atleast when it does it is in relatively easy fashion compared to the opposite);
But if you want to get away to age3 vs an hardcore rush you better just straight FF as it is just safer. With semi FF you gonna be stuck in the middle, stacking almost enough resources to age up and not having enough units to defend anyway.

pecelot wrote:and how is naked FF supposed to counter rush

Naked low eco ff is basically a turtle strat. You time all the units (from shipment, age up, wonder, explorer, TC fire, etc.) at the same time and then win with just shipment spam.
People that think that rush works vs FF really have to watch for old games where straight FF and no compromises rushes were very common.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Iro just doesnt beat china on re lol. China can rush the iro si ff as well as do their own semi and just beat whatever iro does. Ff semi ff or rush, doesnt matter
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:Iro just doesnt beat china on re lol. China can rush the iro si ff as well as do their own semi and just beat whatever iro does. Ff semi ff or rush, doesnt matter

Did you mean to say RE?
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by fei123456 »

umeu wrote:Iro just doesnt beat china on re lol. China can rush the iro si ff as well as do their own semi and just beat whatever iro does. Ff semi ff or rush, doesnt matter

Why should iro do semif on RE?! Just all-in rush, or stagecoach boom into kanya aenna spam: how can chinese semiff deal with this?
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by deleted_user »

probably an early tp, 8 chokunu + halb minutes for cav semi deals nicely with iro's ep BB rush since choks dps HI so well. I actually don't think china semi ff is all that bad especially if you can get a nice large wood tres in age 1 and chop 100w for 2nd village to not be popped.

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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Hazza54321 »

I think u can play this mu as china the same way you can play german vs russia, 8bow 9pike 700g and literally break the fb with the hero and disciples and then go age 3 if iro does a semi build
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by deleted_user0 »

ovi12 wrote:
umeu wrote:Iro just doesnt beat china on re lol. China can rush the iro si ff as well as do their own semi and just beat whatever iro does. Ff semi ff or rush, doesnt matter

Did you mean to say RE?


No i meant ep
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by momuuu »

I think brit doing a timing push with longbows and some musks and then adding some hussars when china ages (easy to fuel that mass with 700g) is really strong. I made kami feel desperate doing a build like this. I was doing 700w 600w and then 700g first booming up to about 130-140 manor pop and then throwing down 2 raxes to make 10 longbow and then 5 longbow 5 musk and then push while reinforcing with another 5 longbow 5 musk. Longbows are pretty nice to push with since you dont actually have to overextend, so you can do some free damage maybe, and then the musks help you with siege or potentially a 5 meteor hammer shipment, and you can probably get 5 huss out in time to counter arqs, and then china cant really stabilize at all while youre also rocking a great eco and a pretty good army comp.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by tedere12 »

Gendarme wrote:Before I say anything else: I'm an übernoob, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, a slice of lime, and a shot of tequila.

As France against China, I go for two batches of hussars semi-FF. If you force him to send pikemen in colonial age, it's great, and unless his base is cramped together, which it usually isn't because China likes to spread out with their villages securing resources, he will probably be forced to send that shipment. Even if he sends the pikemen shipment, you can continue raiding and hopefully idling him some more; pikemen are not dragoons - they are no threat to your hussars unless you misplay and get caught.

China usually goes heavy on cavalry, so in fortress my composition is heavy on cuirassiers and dragoons (and the hussars that have survived from earlier raiding). Together with the two falconets and a handful of skirmishers, you should be able to hold his timing push (I don't play China, but every game I have played, China has always come to my base - all I needed to do was to wait).
3 hus is enough to delay their ageup and force mm. More than that seem to be a waste. Cuir heavy with cc and a couple skirm with falc. After 1st fight i go full goon because China cant remass skirm
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by Gendarme »

@tedere12 Minutemen can't stop two batches of hussars. He will need to send a pikemen shipment, or idle a lot which are both worse options than making an extra batch of hussars. And if you don't carelessly use your hussars, they are useful in the fortress age fight as well. I think it is a good investment to make two batches of hussars and go 4 cdb > 700w > 700c, instead of only one batch and going 4 cdb > 700w and saving one shipment and aging up slightly quicker.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by _H2O »

China in general is weak before a mass is built. They also are weak against cav if you pressure them correctly. They lean heavily on consulate muskets, Manchu shipment, and the ability to draw out cav fights (cav v cav and disciple factory).

I haven't tested what you said jerom but I would buy that one.
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Re: How to beat the China FF deathball?

Post by momuuu »

_H2O wrote:China in general is weak before a mass is built. They also are weak against cav if you pressure them correctly. They lean heavily on consulate muskets, Manchu shipment, and the ability to draw out cav fights (cav v cav and disciple factory).

I haven't tested what you said jerom but I would buy that one.

I havent thoroughly tested it tbh, I think maybe a intervention shipment plus disciples plus a batch of cav plus minutemen would hold but it also seemed like there wouldnt be enough res for that. When trying it out kami and I wondered how beatable it was, but it was only 4-5 games.

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