Eco theory vs musk attack card

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Hungary Dsy
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Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

Hi guys.

I just realized some people send always musket attack as brit so wanna point out some math.
You usually have 130% hunt gather speed 110% coin gather speed thanks for market ups. All this means with eco theory you would get 140 + 120% rates.
Worst case you get: 140/130 faster gather speed = 7,7% better gather speed with eco theory.

Lets simulate in theory 2 players. 1 send eco thory other send musk attack.

Musket power rate with attack card for price: 0.39675 (quick calculation: 150*23*1.15/100^2)

Eco theory musket power rate for price: (150*23/92.85^2) 0.40017 (92.85 cause 100/107.7)

All this means you get kinda the some power boost for musk with musk attack and eco theory card.
Some more notes: Hp/attack card boost also the already existing units which is an instant buff. Kinda worth "unit number * 1.15" instant unit.
Eco theory: All of your units get buffed including vills. Plus building also cheaper. You run out res a bit faster though.

So is some instant musks worth you sacrafice other unit (include vills) and building discounts? When the newly made musks are basicly equal for power/price ratio?:)

This question is mainly about brits cause they are the only one i guess who send age 2 combat cards in sup.
I would go with eco boost ofc. Yeah so if some1 want to have some minor edge in brit mirror just send eco theory instead of age 2 combat card i guess...
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by __Uhlan__ »

nah your musk do more damage to vills etc and if you lose the fight you end up losing vills or getting idled and who cares if your vills gather a bit faster if you can never win the musk fight, and can't gather on the map or control the hunts becuase of it. Eco theory is a barely viable card as almost any civ unless it's late game.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

I dont think one time existing musk number * 1.15 buff is lethal.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

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Post by Lukas_L99 »

You know that brits don't have eco theory, right..?
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

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Post by ListlessSalmon »

Brit doesn't have eco theory. Also you have to consider that unit upgrades buff all existing units, whereas eco cards only increase future gathering. But if you have low units from trading then an eco card might be better than upgrade card. (Assuming you have surplus production potential) In such a situation crates or units might be better though because they're going to create a large advantage when both sides have small numbers of units.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

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Post by britishmusketeer »

Disregarding the fact brits don't get eco theory, the instant buff + the fact that musk attack decreases the amount of shots to kill opposing musks means you get more if a boost than your maths implies. Also you can't calculate stuff in this way due to pathing ect.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Dsy wrote:I dont think one time existing musk number * 1.15 buff is lethal.


Man, just trust me if you send eco theory which brit doesn't even have, but hypothetically, I'll just sit on your hunts siege your rax and you can never win the fight becuase by the time eco theory pays off and you actully have more muskets I would of already gotten 2-3 good trades and then you can just never catch up. You'll also go on mills sooner becuase I'll have the whole map becuase I have better units and then you then behind in eco & upgrades.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

Lol brits really dont have that card..:) I didnt know.
Still its just better to send eco thory than age 2 combat cards in sup. But other civs dont really send age 2 combat cards i guess.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Dsy wrote:I dont think one time existing musk number * 1.15 buff is lethal.


Man, just trust me if you send eco theory which brit doesn't even have, but hypothetically, I'll just sit on your hunts siege your rax and you can never win the fight becuase by the time eco theory pays off and you actully have more muskets I would of already gotten 2-3 good trades and then you can just never catch up. You'll also go on mills sooner becuase I'll have the whole map becuase I have better units and then you then behind in eco & upgrades.


Nah its not true. If you have 35 musks when you send it. you get 5-6 more instant. You can just encounter 10 more if you fight under the opponents baracks. Which alreary negats this adv.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Darwin_ »

Eco theory pays off over time, while combat cards act effectively like a military unit shipment at first and like a economic upgrade in the long run.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

Eco is a long run card however its still better than age 2 combat cards. Thats my point...
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Dsy wrote:Lol brits really dont have that card..:) I didnt know.
Still its just better to send eco thory than age 2 combat cards in sup. But other civs dont really send age 2 combat cards i guess.


It's not...to be exact eco cards in supremacy are so situational, actully I can't think of a eco up that is viable most of the time..cold mint and refrigeration are almost always to risky and just lose you the game, spice trade sucks, eco theory can be ok I guess but it's still not best option in 99% of situations. in fortress wars you just can't afford to send these eco upgrades and not fall behind on unit upgrades or units, and you need to control the map in these kinds of games so you need units not 25% eco up.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

I know eco theory is a bad card overall in sup, however its still better than age 2 combat cards. Still thats my point...:D
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Dsy wrote:I know eco theory is a bad card overall in sup, however its still better than age 2 combat cards. Still thats my point...:D


Then which ones? As ger/fre it's actully almost never viable to send in a close age 2 or age 3 game unless the game is 25/35+ mins and longer. Cav hp would just be better here, as Russia boyars or team cav hp is way better then eco theory. Otto doesn't even have enough vills for eco theory to be decent. What other civ has eco theory? Can't think of another one.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by pecelot »

It's not a bad card at all, eco cards are kind of irrelevant in musk vs musk battles — you could send even spice trade as most of your vills will be on food already. The thing is, you get 10-unit batches from 2 raxes regardless usually, hence the military factor is more key.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

in 35 vs 40 musk that 5 musks wont win you the game...
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by NekoBerk »

Dsy wrote:I know eco theory is a bad card overall in sup, however its still better than age 2 combat cards. Still thats my point...:D


Did you really tested it in-game against real players like 20 times? or are you just saying it?
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Dsy wrote:in 35 vs 40 musk that 5 musks wont win you the game...


Yes it does, becuase then you control the hunts and remass way better even though you have faster gathering vills.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Hazza54321 »

Having stronger units but equal units snowballs fast
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by fei123456 »

if you have enough resources and you can avoid a fight, "eco theory" would be good.
you can count it as a 4v shipment. (only to brit. other civs won't have so many vills.)

but these cards don't work together with market upgrades. for example, you have steel trap and your vills are now 130%, and then you send eco theory, they will be 140%, not 143%.
so even if you have 40 vills, eco theory is still worse than 4v.
that's why i hate spice trade too.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

No its not how it works.
If you want to send age 2 combat cards (lot of players have it) its just better to send eco theory. However other cards much more usefull usually. This discussion is about only age2 combat card vs eco theory.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Darwin_ »

Dsy wrote:Eco is a long run card however its still better than age 2 combat cards. Thats my point...

I think that it is blatantly inferior honestly. There's a reason its an age 1 card...
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by Dsy »

Theory card wasnt originally part of the age of empires 3. It came with tad or twc. It wasnt on nilla.
So they made an age1 card which is better than age2 combat cards. Its not a big deal just wanted to point it out. However you cant really skip any cards to send either of them so it doesnt really matter.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by fei123456 »

also i prefer a goodspeed style in brit mirror, such as 700w 600w 700g semiff. similar to 600-600-600 japan mirror.
i call the 600-600-600 BO "noob bo" cuz noobs can use it. japan mirror used to be the most difficult match-up, you need insane macro+good micro+raiding+counter raiding. but with goodspeed's 600-600-600, even I can play japan mirror too! you don't need superior macro and insane apm, just do a standard timing push and win.
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Re: Eco theory vs musk attack card

Post by _NiceKING_ »

__Uhlan__ wrote:As ger/fre it's actully almost never viable to send in a close age 2 or age 3 game unless the game is 25/35+ mins and longer. Cav hp would just be better here, as Russia boyars or team cav hp is way better then eco theory. Otto doesn't even have enough vills for eco theory to be decent. What other civ has eco theory? Can't think of another one.

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