Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

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Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

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Post by greatscythe11 »

Unfortunately I couldn't load the tables as I had intended so for now I'm making do with attaching the analysis.Basically I tried to analyze whether the Saloon can be considered as an anticav building because of the types of mercenaries that are available. Please feel free to share your opinion.If the math feels cumbersome(the community consists of talented people from non math or non science backgrounds as well), ignore it and just note the percentages.On the other hand if maths is right up your alley, please do me a favor by checking it.Hopefully everyone interested in mercenaries will join.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by ssaraf »

wow, that was actually a good analysis. TBH, its also kinda fair , since ger/china who don't have a good anticav option can benefit from it. :)
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Jaeger »

I only checked the first calculation and 1-C(9, 2)/C(16, 2) seems good. Are you sure tho that each merc is equally likely to occur?
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

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Post by pecelot »

I feel the saloon overall is a bit too random to be viable, basically as Germany you can get Hackapells, which are of course a nice addition, but kind of an overkill for your already low-HP-high-attack cavalry. What I would experiment more with would be outlaws, as Comancheros or Renegados especially can turn out to be potential game-changers. For instance, when playing as the British you don't see that often enough, as they can provide enough population space for saloon units without much problem.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by P i k i l i c »

Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol
Also, blind monks are available on Yellow River only afaik
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by lemmings121 »

P i k i l i c wrote:Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol
Also, blind monks are available on Yellow River only afaik


i think i've never seen this unit in those 10 years o.O

i think i'll play some yellow river today.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by lemmings121 »

Also, i think is not pure random. In my memory i'm pretty sure the game never rolls 2 units of the same type, so those odds are a little diferent.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Jaeger »

lemmings121 wrote:Also, i think is not pure random. In my memory i'm pretty sure the game never rolls 2 units of the same type, so those odds are a little diferent.

Do you mean it never gives br + manchu for example?
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Lukas_L99 »

ovi12 wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:Also, i think is not pure random. In my memory i'm pretty sure the game never rolls 2 units of the same type, so those odds are a little diferent.

Do you mean it never gives br + manchu for example?


I think I've had that before
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Jaeger »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:Also, i think is not pure random. In my memory i'm pretty sure the game never rolls 2 units of the same type, so those odds are a little diferent.

Do you mean it never gives br + manchu for example?


I think I've had that before

Yeah same
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by pecelot »

P i k i l i c wrote:Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol

Why Fusiliers? IMO they are very good at it :!:
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by greatscythe11 »

ovi12 wrote:I only checked the first calculation and 1-C(9, 2)/C(16, 2) seems good. Are you sure tho that each merc is equally likely to occur?


No, I've assumed each to be equally likely.If there's a pattern, only the programming people might know.But I've checked the mercs in IndoChina 10 times repeatedly.So, for every 10 times, out of 20 mercs, about 10-12 were anticav.
pecelot wrote:I feel the saloon overall is a bit too random to be viable, basically as Germany you can get Hackapells, which are of course a nice addition, but kind of an overkill for your already low-HP-high-attack cavalry. What I would experiment more with would be outlaws, as Comancheros or Renegados especially can turn out to be potential game-changers. For instance, when playing as the British you don't see that often enough, as they can provide enough population space for saloon units without much problem.

Well, for people who use outlaw strategy, the options are known so the strategy is simpler I feel.The mystery in each game about the saloon mercs is what makes the saloon interesting.I mean both players, the user and his opponent, may do some guessing at some point once a saloon play comes into the picture.Also, generally, the most used mercs are also anticav(BR, highlander, manchu, swiss pikes etc.).
P i k i l i c wrote:Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol
Also, blind monks are available on Yellow River only afaik

I've included a calculation by ignoring those 2 plus barbary corsairs.Also, only 3 civs are mentioned.Regarding those 2 mercs, I felt that it would be better to let people express their own opinions as you have done.And if we ignore the blind monk, the results should favor the anticav side even more.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Jjtuxtron »

btw, why mercs aren't used in TR?
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Fusiliers are a bad anti cav. And actually just a bad unit.

Was too lazy to read the pdf, but yeah I think anti cav is the most represented kind of unit in the saloon in both age 2 and 3. When you think about it, the only skirms you get in the saloon are jaegers, and only cav are strads/hackapells (in age 3). Then almost everything else is anti cav, except a couple weird units. And in age 2, you have renegados, thugees and blind monks, then I think almost everything else is anti cav (hand cav outlaws don't exist).
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by yemshi »

There are two mercs who are simply not able to deal with cav: Jägers and Arsonist.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jjtuxtron wrote:btw, why mercs aren't used in TR?

Because they're age 3 units, and in treaty you're age 5, so mercs become shitty (they don't have guard/imperial upgrades). Plus they don't benefit from most of the homecity cards
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by pecelot »

greatscythe11 wrote:
pecelot wrote:I feel the saloon overall is a bit too random to be viable, basically as Germany you can get Hackapells, which are of course a nice addition, but kind of an overkill for your already low-HP-high-attack cavalry. What I would experiment more with would be outlaws, as Comancheros or Renegados especially can turn out to be potential game-changers. For instance, when playing as the British you don't see that often enough, as they can provide enough population space for saloon units without much problem.

Well, for people who use outlaw strategy, the options are known so the strategy is simpler I feel.The mystery in each game about the saloon mercs is what makes the saloon interesting.I mean both players, the user and his opponent, may do some guessing at some point once a saloon play comes into the picture.Also, generally, the most used mercs are also anticav(BR, highlander, manchu, swiss pikes etc.).

It may be interesting for you, but for others it can seem too risky to spend 200 wood at a given point in time. Furthermore, don't forget about Mamelukes, Jaegers, Highlanders, Hackapells or Iron Troops when you enumerate the most popular mercenaries :!:
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

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Post by Rikikipu »

Blindmonk is an outlaw, not a merc. Mercs are totally random. Outlaws depend on the map type (same as treasure set btw). Mercs are good as germany, can be good as a niche for other civs if you run out of food. Outlaws are bad overall
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by gibson »

pecelot wrote:
P i k i l i c wrote:Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol

Why Fusiliers? IMO they are very good at it :!:

Fusiliers are awful anticav lol. They're actually just trash units. Probably the only merc thats worse than them is arsonists tbh
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Rikikipu »

gibson wrote:
pecelot wrote:
P i k i l i c wrote:Cool work and ideas, but you also have to mention that Fusiliers and Landsknechts are actually worse than the regular anticav of any civ lol

Why Fusiliers? IMO they are very good at it :!:

Fusiliers are awful anticav lol. They're actually just trash units. Probably the only merc thats worse than them is arsonists tbh

Arsonist is good vs dutch actually
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by greatscythe11 »

ovi12 wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:Also, i think is not pure random. In my memory i'm pretty sure the game never rolls 2 units of the same type, so those odds are a little diferent.

Do you mean it never gives br + manchu for example?

Well, its fair to ignore blind monk(my mistake) so that leaves us with 15 mercs. That gives us 15C2=105 pairs of mercs. So the chance of any such pair(BR+Manchu or BR+Jaeger) to occur will be =1/105=0.01=1%.In other words one such pair will occur only once in 105 games assuming the games are random.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by pecelot »

Fusilier is just a musketeer with additional bonus in range vs light cavalry, has very high base damage and regular ranged-heavy-infantry melee attack. Say whatever you want about them, but not that they are bad anti-cav.
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by noissance »

Renegado rush works amazing vs lieutenants and master sgts
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by greatscythe11 »

pecelot wrote:Fusilier is just a musketeer with additional bonus in range vs light cavalry, has very high base damage and regular ranged-heavy-infantry melee attack. Say whatever you want about them, but not that they are bad anti-cav.


Fusiliers mixed with high HP cav like Chinese cav, Mahout lancer or Cuirassiers could be interesting(high hp high dps combo).
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Re: Is the Saloon/Monastery an anticav building?

Post by Kaiserklein »

pecelot wrote:Fusilier is just a musketeer with additional bonus in range vs light cavalry, has very high base damage and regular ranged-heavy-infantry melee attack. Say whatever you want about them, but not that they are bad anti-cav.


Very high base ranged damage? 70 attack for 300g? No. Same in melee mode, 35 attack for 300g? And only *2 vs cav.
They're a trash anti-cav. They're a very good anti goon, though.

Just go in editor mode, and try fusiliers vs cav, then compare to different kind of musketeers, highlanders, etc. You'll see how much they suck. Add to that the fact they only have 300 hp for 300g, so they're going to get sniped so fucking easily. I mean, 300 hp is basically a vet jan hp, but for 3 times more VS...
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