Late/Early Game Army Composition - China

[jj0823]

Hi Esocks,
What do you think about army compositions for China? This is a tough one because China has banner armies and a variety of unique artillery.
Most games I play out age II, I will go mostly Old Han + Standard armies, a decent 3 unit comp that can trade well with the right micro.
Age III and beyond I usually go Territorial Army + Forbidden Army and ~10 hand mortars, essentially an upgraded colonial comp with some anti artillery and better siege.
I usually transform my colonial comp into fortress with New Army and when timed well, is very strong. However, I have seen Old Han Reforms work very well; what do you think about it?

[jj0823]

Rephrase: Is Old Han (reformed) Army better than Territorial Army?

[Lukas_L99]

Rephrase: Is Old Han (reformed) Army better than Territorial Army?

Yes

[jj0823]

Rephrase: Is Old Han (reformed) Army better than Territorial Army?

Yes

y

[deleted_user0]

depends on how you look at it. when you have sent old han reforms, old han is better, but when you just aged up and only have veteran units or maybe guard, then territorial is better by a mile. and in the mu's where its not fi vs fi its much better to go fi with territorial units and ship 17 skir to have a quick 30+ guard skirm mass rather than to ship 21 bows and have 30 veteran or maybe guard bows but get outranged by vet skirms.

territorial fi is really strong in a few mu's tbh, specially vs dutch and ports (although you can do old han vs port fi as well), but also vs france if you can get away with it, or a india howdah play.

[jj0823]

Just wanted to bring this back up. I still don't know entirely what to do for Chinese armies...seems pretty hard to balance them. My Changdao's pretty much die off instantly even with good micro in team games and whatnot, and I end up with 50+ Skirmishers. Usually at that point I make Forbidden armies to act as a meat shield, and it works pretty well, but I'd like to hear other's thoughts.

[Hazza54321]

old han z move with infinite 2 crows and forbidden army

[deleted_user]

There's something to be said for the early TP semi ff build: northern refugees + unit shipment + unit shipment + unitshipment and/or 300e + 700g then age.

[gamevideo113]

Speaking of china in colonial, is the 500f card that gives 8ckn 1 flamethrower good? In vs 500 food is more or less the same as 170g 170w so i think it might be useful, since a flamethrower has 600 ranged hitpoints and also deals good damage to inf if left untouched.

Also, is a combination of old han army and pike+keshik army viable? You end up with a ton of pikes, but they actually have a pretty good siege attack for their cost.
Keshiks instead are considered bad by everyone, but i noticed that they can hit and run quite well, and they actually cost less than half what auj dragoon costs, are they a bit underrated maybe? l

Would an hypothetical chu ko nu-keshik army spammable in age2? Even without considering that it would cost only food, not many civs have access to RI+RC in age2.

And for age3, is the 8keshik 8steppes +vet upgrade viable? It also costs food but it doesn't seem a bad deal to me. If you sent the age2 cav card (buff for keshik vs cav, steppe vs vill and flail vs LI) then it should be pretty good (although i don't know when you could send that age2 card).

I feel like china has a lot of interesting options but i don't know how viable most of them are

[jj0823]

Speaking of china in colonial, is the 500f card that gives 8ckn 1 flamethrower good? In vs 500 food is more or less the same as 170g 170w so i think it might be useful, since a flamethrower has 600 ranged hitpoints and also deals good damage to inf if left untouched.

Also, is a combination of old han army and pike+keshik army viable? You end up with a ton of pikes, but they actually have a pretty good siege attack for their cost.
Keshiks instead are considered bad by everyone, but i noticed that they can hit and run quite well, and they actually cost less than half what auj dragoon costs, are they a bit underrated maybe? l

Would an hypothetical chu ko nu-keshik army spammable in age2? Even without considering that it would cost only food, not many civs have access to RI+RC in age2.

And for age3, is the 8keshik 8steppes +vet upgrade viable? It also costs food but it doesn't seem a bad deal to me. If you sent the age2 cav card (buff for keshik vs cav, steppe vs vill and flail vs LI) then it should be pretty good (although i don't know when you could send that age2 card).

I feel like china has a lot of interesting options but i don't know how viable most of them are

I'll try to answer from my experience playing primarily China for awhile now. Mandarin Duck Squad is not a bad card, but I often find you do need food as China for everything. Whether you're trying to age, holding off a rush, or rushing yourself, all of the armies are pretty food heavy. Also, having 8 CKN and essentially artillery will prompt heavy cav spam, and unfortunately that crushes pretty much every China comp, even if you are going Old Han. It's really easy to micro down Qiang Pikemen and leave the Chinese army just RI. I'd rather just send 8CKN, 9QP, or 7 SR.

CKN Keshik is definitely not spammable Age II, no matter how much you want it to be. You would end up with a lot of pikes, but pikes are really not that good massed. Besides, that's really expensive. Chinese is already a low eco civ, trying to mass produce two different armies seems a little hopeful.

That Age III shipment is not good IMO, and it's kind of the same situation. Early Age III eco still sucks, it didn't really improve when you aged. Expecting to have 1000 food available seems a little unrealistic, I am always spending it on Territorial/Forbidden armies to fuel the death ball. Those units aren't really that good either; Steppes are pretty bad even when fully upgraded, and that few amount will die to a mass of RI pretty easily. I would rather use the food on armies and send free unit shipments.
From my personal experience, there are really not that many viable Chinese options. There are plenty of options, but you are really limited by a slow eco.

[gamevideo113]

Yeah, you are probably right. Btw, is there a specific reason why i never see people create the imperial army? Is that because meteor>flail?

[jj0823]

Yeah, you are probably right. Btw, is there a specific reason why i never see people create the imperial army? Is that because meteor>flail?

To be honest I'm not sure. In a recent game Chrisie said Iron Flails were bad but WickedCossack gave them the benefit of the doubt. In my personal experience they are better than Changdao's for anticav, because they are like mini Gendarmes. Meteor Hammers excel at destroying artillery, and have a higher base attack. In a lot of games I do end up switching to full Imperial army or full Forbidden army because people often underestimate Chinese cav. The area damage of the Iron Flail can really catch people off guard and army-less.

[momuuu]

I think its not that flails suck but that meteor hammers are awesome. Anyways the answer here is simply old han with old han reforms.

[deleted_user0]

Yeah, you are probably right. Btw, is there a specific reason why i never see people create the imperial army? Is that because meteor>flail?

Its more that skir cav is awkward for china because the flails arent great (while uhlan skir is fine) and they struggle to get anti cav. So its hard for them to transition out of it. So its better to make territorial and then add forbidden than to make imperial and then add territorial. I only make imperial when i need cav asap but cant afford the coin for forbidden, which barely never happens

[deleted_user0]

There's something to be said for the early TP semi ff build: northern refugees + unit shipment + unit shipment + unitshipment and/or 300e + 700g then age.

Not just something, imo that build, and its variations, is chinas best bet in many mus.