Japanese anti-Aztec build

Australia Hazza54321
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

Lunatic_Fringe wrote:
Jerom wrote:Hey the beisteiros are not shitty at all.

What's the point of being a crossbowman if you don't have a multiplier against heavy infantary

They dont have a negative multiplier vs cav and japan are weak to cav until yumi are upgraded and clubs are out
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Eh they dont? Thats a bug then, cuz normal xbowmen have it. They also have bonus vs heavy inf
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by momuuu »

Lunatic_Fringe wrote:
Jerom wrote:Hey the beisteiros are not shitty at all.

What's the point of being a crossbowman if you don't have a multiplier against heavy infantary

27 base damage, no negative multiplier against cav. Theyre closer to a musk than an xbow.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

umeu wrote:Eh they dont? Thats a bug then, cuz normal xbowmen have it. They also have bonus vs heavy inf

The bows from cons have different stats
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by momuuu »

I'm pretty sure the 8 beisteiros give you pretty good value given that they're not actually 8 crossbowmen but much better than that.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Hazza54321 wrote:
umeu wrote:Eh they dont? Thats a bug then, cuz normal xbowmen have it. They also have bonus vs heavy inf

The bows from cons have different stats


ya, thats strange. cons units are a cluster fuck on re, but i thought ep fixed it.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by momuuu »

I mean if you "fix" besteiros then you're nerfing japan pretty badly.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Jerom wrote:I mean if you "fix" besteiros then you're nerfing japan pretty badly.


dont know, possibily. but tbh bestieros are going out of fashion kinda. they werent part of japan meta for quite long, and it seems theyre going out of the meta again. so might not be true per se.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

either way japan doesnt need to be nerfed more lol, theyre so shit on ep
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by Garja »

7 besteiros, also 27 attack seems too much, that's prob in age III. They are good anyway. Funny fact you get 11 of them with intervention.

Japan is not bad at all on EP. Objectively they still win at least half of MUs (prob more). Personally speaking, they also have lot of potential if played as your main/only civ. And that's because they have so many builds/tricks that can work occasionally and raise the win ratio vs opponents that are not aware of those side variations/tricks. Also they are highly dependant on starting conditions so whenever they get a good start they becone disruptively better as they get through sticky points (e.g food treasures improve age up time greatly and change MUs where early aggression is a key factor).
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:7 besteiros, also 27 attack seems too much, that's prob in age III. They are good anyway. Funny fact you get 11 of them with intervention.

Japan is not bad at all on EP. Objectively they still win at least half of MUs (prob more). Personally speaking, they also have lot of potential if played as your main/only civ. And that's because they have so many builds/tricks that can work occasionally and raise the win ratio vs opponents that are not aware of those side variations/tricks. Also they are highly dependant on starting conditions so whenever they get a good start they becone disruptively better as they get through sticky points (e.g food treasures improve age up time greatly and change MUs where early aggression is a key factor).

its 19 in age 2 yea
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Darwin_ »

Lunatic_Fringe wrote:
Jerom wrote:Hey the beisteiros are not shitty at all.

What's the point of being a crossbowman if you don't have a multiplier against heavy infantary

They are vanilla crossbowmen but with a multiplier vs. light cavalry.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Vanilla xbowman have that multiplier too, its just not shown explicitly
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Like all nilla RI btw
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by lordraphael »

umeu wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
umeu wrote:Eh they dont? Thats a bug then, cuz normal xbowmen have it. They also have bonus vs heavy inf

The bows from cons have different stats


ya, thats strange. cons units are a cluster fuck on re, but i thought ep fixed it.

cons units are always stornger than their "normal" counterpart ,dont see any problem here.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by yurashic »

Hazza54321 wrote:either way japan doesnt need to be nerfed more lol, theyre so shit on ep


Japan only loses like 2-3 MUs and those aren't even too bad, Japan is not bad at all... You say this because all your 3 main civs do well vs Japan.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

lordraphael wrote:
umeu wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:The bows from cons have different stats


ya, thats strange. cons units are a cluster fuck on re, but i thought ep fixed it.

cons units are always stornger than their "normal" counterpart ,dont see any problem here.


Theyre a flat 10% stronger, but shouldnt have different multipliers etc, or base stats, essentially making them a different unit. Obviously there is something wrong with that when it is not uniformly implemented and it seems more like a bug or sloppy work than anything planned
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

yurashic wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:either way japan doesnt need to be nerfed more lol, theyre so shit on ep


Japan only loses like 2-3 MUs and those aren't even too bad, Japan is not bad at all... You say this because all your 3 main civs do well vs Japan.

they lose way more and most of those are awful, otto, azzy, russia, brit, china, dutch, spain are all awful MUs, they also have close MUs with france and lose to germany. So i dont see how thats 2-3 MUs :p, people say they werent that strong on previous patches yet they keep getting nerfed.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Garja »

Otto shouldnt be bad on EP, Brit dont really win I think, China is close, Dutch shouldnt be a problem, Spain also very beatable.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:Otto shouldnt be bad on EP, Brit dont really win I think, China is close, Dutch shouldnt be a problem, Spain also very beatable.


china loses to japan, definitely on EP. slower cav training kills that mu for them. spain probably loses as well. otto probably still wins. although the abus nerf is huge in that mu definitely
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Kaiserklein »

Consulate units usually have like 10% hp and attack bonus, but besteiros are special. They're basically like nilla crossbows, in terms of multipliers. Idk if it's a bug or intended
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by tedere12 »

don't besteiros (the portugese church tech units) have no multipliers as well?
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by yurashic »

Hazza54321 wrote:
yurashic wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:either way japan doesnt need to be nerfed more lol, theyre so shit on ep


Japan only loses like 2-3 MUs and those aren't even too bad, Japan is not bad at all... You say this because all your 3 main civs do well vs Japan.

they lose way more and most of those are awful, otto, azzy, russia, brit, china, dutch, spain are all awful MUs, they also have close MUs with france and lose to germany. So i dont see how thats 2-3 MUs :p, people say they werent that strong on previous patches yet they keep getting nerfed.


Otto is close unless it's a 5 tp map. 1 mistake of Otto and you are dead.
Azz, Russia - agree.
Brit - most Japan players say it is close. It is hard to counter ashi without normal skirms.
China is Japan favoured, you can boom with no fear and spam ashi with cannons or naginatas to back them up. China can't make many skirms, has no goons and OP cav is useless vs ashi.
Same goes for Dutch, they have more chances than China imo but you need smart cannon play.
Spain - kill forward tower, make ashi, kill cannons, gg.
France and Germany are close MUs but it requires perfect play from France and Germany. Watch old tournament games (ACERGAME09 vs KaiserKlein, PrinceOfKabul vs Nagayumi).

Japan is a very unique civ. You need different skills to play it compared to other civs and it has great potential, very high skill cap. This is why people like Dyddyd, Kynesie and others who play Japan all the time can win most MUs.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Ashvin »

besterios = royal status xbows
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Kaiserklein »

tedere12 wrote:don't besteiros (the portugese church tech units) have no multipliers as well?

They do. They are guard tad xbows
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