Japanese anti-Aztec build

No Flag dyddyd91
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Japanese anti-Aztec build

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Post by dyddyd91 »

Hi, I'm dyddydyd who plays japan exclusively.

Today I would like to introduce some strategies.

This is very easy to execute and defend.

Aztec has been considered as Japan hard counter but I don't agree on that. Sure, they are good but Japan has more difficult mu than Aztec.

Imo, basic build: Ship 2 vils or 3 boats in Age 1.

With 2 vils or 3 boats + some tressures, normally 60 food is fine. You can age up by 4:10 with 3 vils.

You should age up with Torri. I had been thinking Torri was a garbage but I was wrong. Actually their exp boost is insanly good. I mean it is better than normal consulate club thing

since torri works like tp even without fight (If you make 2 vils in one min, then it generates 10 bonus exp. If you make 1 shrine in one min, it generates 12 bonus exp. And if you form 8 milltary in one min, it gives you 40 exp!!! You can also use your explorers to get

more xp bonus from tressure guardians.

Compared to the shitty Toshogu wonder bounus, this is way better. Also, Toshogu wonder bonus is 300 exp which needs consulate 200 w. Too expensive!!!

You can skip consulate and use more vils for fast aging up. Big shrine should work like 2 shrines but in most case, they work like 1 shirine because. For example, in Great Plain, your starting heard is 4 so your big shrine works as just 1 shrine. This is worse than 1 rax.

You also get samurais from Torri instread of 5 clubs. 1 samurai is almost same as 2 clubs.

And 3 clubs offset. This is compansated by skipping consluate. I usaully use this adavantage for upgrading berry up

so that your all vils can gather food and then spam yumi with 600 w x2. you should build 3 houses in age 1 + the transtion between 1 and 2. So 40 pops are enough.

Age 2: You can normally age up in 4:10. BUT, you can even age up faster with good crate startt and tressures. 4:10 is 2vil age up time with 3boat u can use 4vil for wonder and faster than this

Rax are built in 4:30. You can now make yumis batch 5.5.5 without any delay so u can get 15 yumis in like 6:10.

15 yumis + mm + vils that are upgraded with eastern medicine can defend Aztec. Then Japan will have better follow up. After 15~17yumis, stop making yumis

since 15~17 yumis are enough for kiting shipment and making mace. Now you should make ashis. Just keep making ashis. If the wood is 200, then build consulate and make yamabushis or shinobis

and then get market up(150/150/150). You will win easily. You also can get Daimyo in almost 8 mins. Like this order '600w-600w-4v-daimyo', daimyo + 15% upgraded Japanese infantry is op.


You can also make some walls to block coyote and for safe shelter. Since most of the Aztec units are melle, they have a pathing issue which is pretty lame.

So yeah, good luck with this. :chinese: :chinese:
No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Then you realise it's diarouga having a disco party in his base and you have absolutely garbage eco.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by KINGofOsmane »

Garja would rek this so ez
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by jesus3 »

maybe I didnt see it, but whats your age1 card? the stronger monks? Colonial Militia?
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Sweden Zutazuta
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by Zutazuta »

I have a hard time believing this works against PR 35+ Aztec. Your eco is going to be in a very bad state and your opponent can have a decent eco (tps/wp) and still contain / kill shrines.

Personally, I never struggled holding all ins with Toshuga (kami/600w/5 ashi) by having decent base building and proper unit/shipment timings.

I still have no great answer to the contain/boom style, especially on high tp maps where once you break any contain you have to make difficult map decisions about sieging tps/killing fbs/ going for the tc. Usually my defacto strategy was just to max boom and hope they make a mistake.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user »

jesus3 wrote:maybe I didnt see it, but whats your age1 card? the stronger monks? Colonial Militia?

2 vills or 3 boats.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by jesus3 »

damnit yeah the first lines, thx
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Darwin_ »

I would do normal play, just with 2v or 3 boats first and more focus on market techs than shrines. Azzy gets insane xp income from sieging shrines, so I always like to boom in a different way. Torrii gates are OK, but the 20 population you get from the toshogu is so vital when doing anything aggressive or scrappy in early age 2.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by dyddyd91 »

well it's not garbage eco at all u can get 140+score in 10min(eventually 4vilshipment+120~30shrine pop+from bonus exp more shipment) while keep making 5ish batch unit compare to aztec one especially if u consider native's lackness of makret upgrade

and due to most of good aztec shipment is military so even if u are wp boom u can't get eco advantage also u can't fast age up

unlike most of euro civ also about tp boom in most map this strat is fine hudson,arkansas,kamchaka just 4+tp is pain for japan
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by _H2O »

I'm inclined to trust this build based on how well I've seen dyddy do with these builds. The eco is usually surprising.

That said the big question mark is how you use this against the contain. The second is how you use it against the FF/FI stats with smoking mirror.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by Warno »

I find it funny when people who are much worse question some of the advice given on the forums. I'm willing to trust the guy that has gotten to PR 39 with 1500 Jap games.

Good build, will try it out.
You use this against Russia too?
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by deleted_user »

I'm inclined to believe RE Japan simply doesn't lose after 12 min with toshuga (stabilize after orchard ship) and probabaly slightly later with non toshuga builds. I'm a real fan of any strat which focuses on surviving the early game to reach Japan's scaling late game.

Dydydydyddydydyyddy is pretty good after all. +1 for non standard jap builds.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yea theyre very difficult to pull off i think, vs contain builds i guess you have to adapt to an ff or a fast fi with walls and ofc the 8 arrows
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by gibson »

deleted_user wrote:I'm inclined to believe RE Japan simply doesn't lose after 12 min with toshuga (stabilize after orchard ship) and probabaly slightly later with non toshuga builds. I'm a real fan of any strat which focuses on surviving the early game to reach Japan's scaling late game.

Dydydydyddydydyyddy is pretty good after all. +1 for non standard jap builds.
people way overrate the toshuga. It adds .05 approx(depending on what res you have it on) to each shrine and gives a trickle of a little over 1 if it has 8 hunts on it. So assuming max shrines and 8 hunts on the toshuga it's worth about a 2 res trickle, so about 4 vils,while early game it's generally worth less than 3. The real benefit is the export you get with it which allows you to do cons boats or get xbows faster or more clubs.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Zutazuta »

Toshuga isn't the wonder of choice against all ins for boom reasons. You do it for the 300 export and 20 pop space (really underrated). It also provides far more flexibility which is really advantageous compared to other choices which lock you into a style of play. A lot of aggressive civs don't have to commit to an aggressive play until long after Japan has decided to go with an all in counter build, which is really powerful, especially at higher levels.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by gibson »

Zutazuta wrote:Toshuga isn't the wonder of choice against all ins for boom reasons. You do it for the 300 export and 20 pop space (really underrated). It also provides far more flexibility which is really advantageous compared to other choices which lock you into a style of play. A lot of aggressive civs don't have to commit to an aggressive play until long after Japan has decided to go with an all in counter build, which is really powerful, especially at higher levels.
Well vs an all in the pop isn't really relevant as youll have a few shrines all over the map and the enemy will be in your base. Also the xp bonus the torii gives along with the rax wagon and samurai is better than 3/4 of 7 shitty xbows or 5 clubs. Faster shipment progression allows better adaption as you can more easily afford to send a military shipment knowing that you'll get your next shipment much quicker vs the toshuga.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Hazza54321 »

You may not know but theres more to japan than kami and toshuga everygame
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by Zutazuta »

gibson wrote:
Zutazuta wrote:Toshuga isn't the wonder of choice against all ins for boom reasons. You do it for the 300 export and 20 pop space (really underrated). It also provides far more flexibility which is really advantageous compared to other choices which lock you into a style of play. A lot of aggressive civs don't have to commit to an aggressive play until long after Japan has decided to go with an all in counter build, which is really powerful, especially at higher levels.
Well vs an all in the pop isn't really relevant as youll have a few shrines all over the map and the enemy will be in your base. Also the xp bonus the torii gives along with the rax wagon and samurai is better than 3/4 of 7 shitty xbows or 5 clubs. Faster shipment progression allows better adaption as you can more easily afford to send a military shipment knowing that you'll get your next shipment much quicker vs the toshuga.


Pop cap is super relevant against all ins. With the increase wood cost, you'll probably have 2-4 shrines on the map. With the extra XP you're more inclined to send unit shipments as well and you'll get pop capped quite frequently. Also around the 8-9 minute mark where you've both taken loses from the aggressive play and he backs out to kill a shrine while you rebuild a mass, you find yourself starved for pop space. I played this exact style on FP 1.2 (which had 130w/15pop shrines), and eventually conceded that it wasn't as good as just doing Toshuga.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Zutazuta »

Hazza54321 wrote:You may not know but theres more to japan than kami and toshuga everygame


Agreed.

Toshuga + 3boats and Toshuga + 300w are both really good too.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by gibson »

Zutazuta wrote:
gibson wrote:
Zutazuta wrote:Toshuga isn't the wonder of choice against all ins for boom reasons. You do it for the 300 export and 20 pop space (really underrated). It also provides far more flexibility which is really advantageous compared to other choices which lock you into a style of play. A lot of aggressive civs don't have to commit to an aggressive play until long after Japan has decided to go with an all in counter build, which is really powerful, especially at higher levels.
Well vs an all in the pop isn't really relevant as youll have a few shrines all over the map and the enemy will be in your base. Also the xp bonus the torii gives along with the rax wagon and samurai is better than 3/4 of 7 shitty xbows or 5 clubs. Faster shipment progression allows better adaption as you can more easily afford to send a military shipment knowing that you'll get your next shipment much quicker vs the toshuga.


Pop cap is super relevant against all ins. With the increase wood cost, you'll probably have 2-4 shrines on the map. With the extra XP you're more inclined to send unit shipments as well and you'll get pop capped quite frequently. Also around the 8-9 minute mark where you've both taken loses from the aggressive play and he backs out to kill a shrine while you rebuild a mass, you find yourself starved for pop space. I played this exact style on FP 1.2 (which had 130w/15pop shrines), and eventually conceded that it wasn't as good as just doing Toshuga.
You get at least 4 and generally more since you have an extra 2 vils/ 3 boats and you don't need to bank wood for a rax. The idea is you hold the pressure and than you have the option to either counter push with a unit shipment or ship 600w. If you counter push your shrines aren't gonna be getting seige cause he needs all his army to defend and if you ship 600w you can just rebuild. It just struggles vs a contain build, but jap always struggles vs contain.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

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Post by yemshi »

Torii Gates= TP+Rax+1 Samurai
Toshogu Shrine = 20 pop, 5 clubs (200w for consulate required)
Since shrine booms are vastly overrated anway Torii doesn't look as bad as you make it soud like.
Full Market + 50 pop + units is better than
Full Market+200 pop+ no units or
Tier one market+130 pop+ few units.

2v and 3 boats is also almost always better than kami.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by tedere12 »

3 boats is a really good card because you have better early eco and you can delay the orchards by 1 shipment but im not sure about 2 vil
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by 666_X »

Tori is good. I would use it vs iro.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by yemshi »

Forgot to mention that the samurai usually kills a fb vill, a tp-building hero or a 305c treausure guardian.
And since you age up at 4:10 that's actually super good.
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Re: Japanese strat(Anti aztec build)

Post by Kaiserklein »

The samurai should kill nothing
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