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I dont know which tactics alt-d is, but i think its stagger mode, which the melee unit does not have. Therefore it doesnt work. The exploit is not actually related to alt-d, its just related to changing tactics while at 0 hp. Alt-d is most common for the ranged explorers, but melee explorers require a different hotkey combo. I've manually changed my hotkeys, so for me it would be control shift h. Btw, this bug also happens when you click on the tactic icon just as the unit is killed. The icon takes like half a second to disappear, during which you can click on it, and it will have the same effect as using the hotkey.

no they can't be in cover mode when dying. the changing to cover mode is what stands them up

Any tactic change will make them up. That's why if it dies in cover mode you need to use another tactic. Just don't abuse it, it's a glitch.

It works with every unit stance hotkey. You probably just remapped it?

Lunatic_Fringe wrote:

yemshi wrote:Yes.

Thank you!
The Toshugu is worth approx 2 vills if it is gathering from 8 herds right?
But what about the gathering boost that it gives to the other shrines. Is it not more valuable than the XP from the Torri? I mean, when not shrine booming, I'll make like 60-70 shrine pop, but as the game progresses, I'll get more shrines as the game progresses. Will that not be more beneficial having the Toshugu up?

the gathering boost is like 0.05 res per shrines. The only good thing about the big shrine is the 300e you get from it

I actually think tori is better in 1v1 and team. Shrine boom is overated as fuck especially in 1v1, easy to plan and punish it. Cant plan beforehand if a japanese player is sending consecutive shipments. The rax samurai and 1.5x xp per unit killed, trained, buildings built etc.. i remember doing a 2v2 and got 2.5 shipments in one fight (30xp per huss, (18xp) per sepoy. Can send 3 boat(2v) 600w (600w) 4v 4v so fast that your eco builds are a similar rate to a shrine boom but whilst being age 2 45secs faster with a rax and a high seige anti cav unit which can potentially deny an fb .

You also dont have to spend building time and 200w on a cons. Also wont need bows with this build so u can even go dutch cons and get the bank when you eventually build it. The main advantage of the toshuga is the 20pop which the tori build can do as u dont need to save 170w for a rax. Also building more shrines for pop early on accelerates ur shipments even more cos 37xp per shrine

Tori is not going to give more eco. That's for sure.
The point is rather which style is more effective in 1v1. In team you dont need to cut eco.
Tori gives the chance to push out at some point woth more or less eco. Problem is usually that's not enough to swing the game in your favor and then you need to send 2 orchards and unit ups just to continue the game. The xp boost is cool except you generally need to send another card to compensate for the fact that your shrine count is low and you have no toshogu nor kami card. Less shrine and more vills also means quickier cherry depletation. Basically you are givig away jap main strenght which is big eco and starving potential. Japan played this way is no different from Spain with 700w 5v 4v and musk spam, except for a) better RI and b) no raidable vills. This is the extent to which you can outplay the opponent who, on the other hand, could house you easier at some point (and shrines are really expensive in this case).

You do neee to "cut eco" in team depending on the MU and map, you cant blindly boom everygame.

I mean you can do other adaptations than changing wonder and skipping consulate. In team you always have more margin for defense.
Anyway the biggest drawback of this strat is harder decision calls. With classic strat you just survive and autowin. With this strat you actually need to make something happen since yor eco isnt the best one anymore.

Classic strat = survive and auto win

If youre vs russia or aztec or otto or maybe even brit, shrine boom is auto lose
In 2v2

From my experience, the shogunate is also a practical wonder to age 2, as the 400 XP means you can either send 2 shipments in age 1 and still have one when you hit age 2, or you can get 3 back-to-back shipments in early age 2. Also the unit cost reduction (essentially +5% eco bonus or more) and train time reduction (-15 or 20% iirc) is also quite good.

I think that torii gates, shogunate, toshogu, and honestly even the golden pavilion all have their place as age 2 wonders, and I would say that all of their individual bonuses are situationally equal, however, the +20 population from the toshogu is just so invaluable in an aggressive or scrappy game that recommending other wonders is quite hard for me to do.

The maphack wonder is the best

gibson wrote:

Lunatic_Fringe wrote:

yemshi wrote:Yes.

Thank you!
The Toshugu is worth approx 2 vills if it is gathering from 8 herds right?
But what about the gathering boost that it gives to the other shrines. Is it not more valuable than the XP from the Torri? I mean, when not shrine booming, I'll make like 60-70 shrine pop, but as the game progresses, I'll get more shrines as the game progresses. Will that not be more beneficial having the Toshugu up?

the gathering boost is like 0.05 res per shrines. The only good thing about the big shrine is the 300e you get from it

That's actually a very small boost. I mean if you don't need the 300e then the Toshugu is pretty worthless. With the Toshugu, you usually get the shitty 7 bows, and at best, Clubs. In this case, is Kami + Torri viable as a strat? @Garja @Hazza54321

No because then it really slows the build, you age like 4:10 with 3 boats and a good crate start or treasures

If u put vills on the wonder without shipping 2v or 3 boat you will get no res in transition

Hey the beisteiros are not shitty at all.

Ye besteiros are good. I also think the toshogu boost ito shrines is more than that. Also btw you can get 3 boats from the port cons.

Hazza54321 wrote:If u put vills on the wonder without shipping 2v or 3 boat you will get no res in transition

What I meant is going for the regular shrine boom, with consulate up asap and Kami as first card, but instead of aging with the Toshugu, you age up with the Torri. The rest of the build remains unchanged.

The export from the shrine is really only that valuable imo if you are on maps with a water spawn point, as you can get the 3 boats which is huge. If you are on a land map, I think the rax and samurai are better in most cases, and honestly the XP bonus is equal if not better than the toshogu gather bonus if you are not going kami.

Darwin_ wrote:The export from the shrine is really only that valuable imo if you are on maps with a water spawn point, as you can get the 3 boats which is huge. If you are on a land map, I think the rax and samurai are better in most cases, and honestly the XP bonus is equal if not better than the toshogu gather bonus if you are not going kami.

I was thinking the same too. 300e would be dope if Japan could ally with the Ottomans like India, but Japan only really have the Ports and Japs isolation which are good. Also from the Japs isolation, the clubs are the best units you can get out of it and Bushido principle is the best tech to research. But that too should be done a bit later in the game.

So what about going Kami and Torri, instead of Kami and Toshugu? If I go Kami, should I get the Toshugu in most cases?

kami and tori is just inferior because of no cons (I assume) and no shrine boost. The shrine boost is actually big. It should be like 100% (was 200% or so in 2008 I think).
You can try TP+2v+kami which is good eco and you have a safer early colo but it didnt seem anything special when I tried it. Tori is nice with TP and 2x 2v or 3 boats. Also 2v 300w and go for stagecoach. Also TP + unit card spam. Basically I think you only gain something by going heavy on eco or offensive. The in between options are mediocre.

Shrine boost is not big because it boosts the baserate which is very low compared to the rate with animals.

Jerom wrote:Hey the beisteiros are not shitty at all.

What's the point of being a crossbowman if you don't have a multiplier against heavy infantary