Musk vs Musk why no bows

[Mameluke]

Sometimes I see pure musks vs pure musks. So why neither of them add xbows or lbows to counter the musks? wouldnt 50% musk + 50% bows beat 100% musks? Has that something to do with potential cav?

thx in advance

[tedere12]

yes, but musketeer with upgrades beat longbows cost effectively. When u add xbow or lb, u gotta be careful that they don't get damaged by musketeers but shoot the enemy units behind them.

[Mameluke]

ty...what im talking about is colonial ofc and with civs where there arent skirms or something like brit vs brit mirror

[Gendarme]

Longbows have a very low amount of hitpoints, and they can't kite due to their bad setup animation. You need a large enough mass of musketeers to tank the fire of the enemy musketeers long enough for your longbows to pay off.

I think in a lot of British mirrors the players would benefit from making longbows, but it is simply easier to spam musketeers.

Other than British mirrors I have never seen pure musketeers, so I am not sure why you are wondering about crossbowmen - perhaps in a rare French Samwise build mirror. In that case your opponent has a stable and musk/huss > musk/xbow, so you don't really want to make crossbowmen.

[Mameluke]

Other than British mirrors I have never seen pure musketeers, so I am not sure why you are wondering about crossbowmen - perhaps in a rare French Samwise build mirror. In that case your opponent has a stable and musk/huss > musk/xbow, so you don't really want to make crossbowmen.

ok so you generally dont go musk/xbow but only and only musk/lbow (and thats only one of many options (where some might be better)?

[gamevideo113]

I think having a 50/50 musk/lbow army just makes your eco management harder, makes you a bit more vulnerable to cav and also as tedere said carded british musk are pretty stronk, probably simply better than longbows, so the cons of mixing in longbows overweight a bit the pros. I have seen players ship 6 lbows in brits mirrors, so i guess that's something worth doing.

[Mitoe]

As Gendarme already pointed out, longbows have a really poor setup animation which prevents them from being able to kite or use their 1.5 second rate of fire (compared to 3.0 seconds for most infantry) effectively. Longbows are pretty ineffective on their own because of this, and usually need an obstacle (walls, terrain, buildings) or tank to obstruct pathing or stand in front and absorb damage so that the longbows can just stand still and shoot.

Basically what this means is that when you do the standard start, with each player starting with a forward rax and a tower, having 5-10 longbows vs 5-10 muskets (especially if their explorer comes to snare you), you're just going to get rekt. Not to mention longbows have no siege so you will have a hard time killing their tower/rax anyway. Brit players would benefit from adding longbows later in the game if you didn't have musket upgrades, but since the only time you'd really be able to mix in longbows after this start is after you've amassed 30-40+ muskets, it's usually more effective to just send musk upgrades and continue to make muskets.

You could start longbow safely if you built your rax at home, but this forfeits map control, and you'll have to rely on something else to keep you in the game (hussar raids, fortress age + falcs, cutting eco for a timing, etc.), but if the opponent adapts properly you're probably never going to get out of your base and will lose when you run out of natural resources.


The only other matchup that is only musk vs musk is French mirror I think? And in that matchup it is actually very worth it to add xbows early if your opponent starts dual rax musk. Otherwise you need the muskets because he'll have hussar, which would negate your xbows pretty effectively.

[enjoy2play]

what u think about a tiny bit lb buff vs HI @Mitoe?

i think vs goons and other skirm type units they do perfectly fine, but they dont counter even age 2 sepoys when lbs are veteran.
i mean for example x1,6 vs HI or sth instead of 1,3, or maybe a mix between buff hp a bit and the HI mulitplicator.

[WickedCossack]

I think 10-20 bows in the back can be fine when you're massing.

The main problem when you start reaching numbers of like 60-70 muskets is they can't all fire because they have 12 range so you always get a few at the back just walking about so the range of the longbow can be useful again.

[Mitoe]

what u think about a tiny bit lb buff vs HI @Mitoe?

i think vs goons and other skirm type units they do perfectly fine, but they dont counter even age 2 sepoys when lbs are veteran.
i mean for example x1,6 vs HI or sth instead of 1,3, or maybe a mix between buff hp a bit and the HI mulitplicator.

At the moment I think Brit's other strengths more than compensate for this sort of weakness, so I'd be against any changes of this nature.

[Googol]

I think 10-20 bows in the back can be fine when you're massing.

The main problem when you start reaching numbers of like 60-70 muskets is they can't all fire because they have 12 range so you always get a few at the back just walking about so the range of the longbow can be useful again.

Imo you can do stagger mode, do like 2-3 ctrl groups for the musket and with a few fast clicks you can do a good positioning immediately. Or stagger mode for 50 the rest could be normal like 50/10/10 but i guess thats too complicated, but with a few fast clicks it works.

[fei123456]

Musk with 10-15 longbow > pure musk

[deleted_user]

Lbows are great at defending but not necessarily at pushing. They are a great option if you choose to do some sort of in base VC boom.

As others have said musks seem to trade well once the two upgrade cards come in but as Wicked said too many musketeers and patching becomes a serious issue. It is very important to mix lbows behind for this reason.

I've basically repeated what has already been said. Please like my post.

[JakeyBoyTH]

I think 10-20 bows in the back can be fine when you're massing.

The main problem when you start reaching numbers of like 60-70 muskets is they can't all fire because they have 12 range so you always get a few at the back just walking about so the range of the longbow can be useful again.

Imo you can do stagger mode, do like 2-3 ctrl groups for the musket and with a few fast clicks you can do a good positioning immediately. Or stagger mode for 50 the rest could be normal like 50/10/10 but i guess thats too complicated, but with a few fast clicks it works.

what if we arent APM gods

[Kaiserklein]

Musks wars require absolutely no micro so you don't need to be an APM god don't worry

[Mameluke]

Lbows are great at defending but not necessarily at pushing. They are a great option if you choose to do some sort of in base VC boom.

As others have said musks seem to trade well once the two upgrade cards come in but as Wicked said too large of musketeer numbers and patching becomes a serious issue. It is very important to mix lbows behind for this reason.

I've basically repeated what has already been said. Please like my post.

youre op

[Hazza54321]

Pathing issues? , split them in 2/3 groups, job done.

[deleted_user]

ye cuz there are never such objects on the map like trees, buildings, other barriers.