German/dutch mercs?

User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3283
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

German/dutch mercs?

Post by fei123456 »

Why don't you use it in tournament games?
I just lost to german mass stradiots badly yesterday. Upgraded stradiot has 700+ hp, 30% rr, AND 7.25 speed. I'll need 14 goons to one shot a stradiot! Goons dont counter stradiots at all here. Stradiots counters goons.
German has 20% hp/atk card. Dutch has 15% hp/atk cav/inf combat card. Mercs are age 5 units in age 3, and with upgrades they're just insane! Their incredible stats make units counter system less effective here: think about german 9 blackriders.

So why few players use them in tournaments? Yes you don't know what will appear in your saloon, but it's just 200w. Not 600w.
Esoc maps always have 2×2000 mine.
Dutch have banks. And they often have to send bad shipments, such as 4 hussars, to defend a colo timing. They usually don't have food to train hussar under pressure. (See rapha brit/german with stanley dutch games.)
But dutch always have gold. If they have a saloon they may train 4 stradiots/hackapells, together with 8 skirm 6 mm, they can do a nice counter strike under tc and win. Melee units such as 5 landskecht/5 swiss pikemen can also deal tons of damage to hussar/pike/longbow combo under TC.
User avatar
New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
Howdah
Posts: 1744
Joined: Oct 15, 2016
ESO: Ex-Contributor
Location: New Zealand

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

Try German Black Rider.
+35% base stats in fortress age.

Like 52 attack and 700-something hp. Plus 40% melee resistance.

just to explain: german team cav affects all cav.
Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk

Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Hazza54321 »

A block with goons shooting in the back is nice like some husd or something, vs mercs you just need to put constant pressure on their mines and multiple location, mercs are stronger when grouped together, split up theyre just an expensive unit but slightly more cost effective than regular units
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Problem with it is that you dont know what you get. It can have stradiots, it can have a useless unit too. Or just not the one you need. You can only find lut what it is by building a 200w building which may he useless. Who wants to take such a risk in a tournament, especially when the strat is not much if any stronger than regular play. Thing is most people just dont know how to deal with it. Constant pressure on the mines makes this strat hard to pull off, and the fact that the units are aloften expensive and high impact, the difference between getting that one extra stradiot can be 5 coin, but it can swing a fight. And you only make it from 1 byilding, cant ever double saloon or anything. The surprise factor makes it suitable for qs, but not for tournaments as decent preparation should deal with it np
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by deleted_user »

umeu wrote:Problem with it is that you dont know what you get. It can have stradiots, it can have a useless unit too. Or just not the one you need. You can only find lut what it is by building a 200w building which may he useless. Who wants to take such a risk in a tournament, especially when the strat is not much if any stronger than regular play. Thing is most people just dont know how to deal with it. Constant pressure on the mines makes this strat hard to pull off, and the fact that the units are aloften expensive and high impact, the difference between getting that one extra stradiot can be 5 coin, but it can swing a fight. And you only make it from 1 byilding, cant ever double saloon or anything. The surprise factor makes it suitable for qs, but not for tournaments as decent preparation should deal with it np

the quality of your idea's are getting pathetic tbh.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Dsy »

Man yesterday i uploaded the unit cost effectivity calulator. Just use it and you get your answer why high level players dont use those...
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by deleted_user0 »

deleted_user wrote:
umeu wrote:Problem with it is that you dont know what you get. It can have stradiots, it can have a useless unit too. Or just not the one you need. You can only find lut what it is by building a 200w building which may he useless. Who wants to take such a risk in a tournament, especially when the strat is not much if any stronger than regular play. Thing is most people just dont know how to deal with it. Constant pressure on the mines makes this strat hard to pull off, and the fact that the units are aloften expensive and high impact, the difference between getting that one extra stradiot can be 5 coin, but it can swing a fight. And you only make it from 1 byilding, cant ever double saloon or anything. The surprise factor makes it suitable for qs, but not for tournaments as decent preparation should deal with it np

the quality of your idea's are getting pathetic tbh.


Your post quality is pathetic. If you disagree, take the time to formulate a proper argument, otherwise just shut up.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: German/dutch mercs?

  • Quote

Post by Hazza54321 »

GRUDGE MATCH
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 817
Joined: Apr 16, 2017
ESO: HUMMAN

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by HUMMAN »

Dsy wrote:Man yesterday i uploaded the unit cost effectivity calulator. Just use it and you get your answer why high level players dont use those...


Dont know how you coded it (i am on Phone) as kaiser mentioned duble hp/attack better than double. 5 mams are better than 10 huss. While a hussar dies it is out of work, half hp mam does the same work. Also pathing and charging should be easier with mercs. It is better to charge with staridots than a huss mass, half of the hussars will wait or try to find a path to engage.
Image
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Dsy »

An stradiot has 187 cost effectivity, a veteran hussar has 226. I agree pathing matters. Number can be however good for melee cav cause you can snipe stradiot with goons more effectivily (cause they are less).
Basicly build a 200w building for make worse unit than hussar + wait until they come out (mercs have a lot of train time) + deplete coin mines fast.
Its simply you doing worse than make simple hussars.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Your numbers are undoubtedly wrong stradiots have great stats. Far better than huss. Even if you recalculate for the price. .75 more speed. And .1 more rr.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Dsy »

The rr was calculated. Speed cant be however.
And its not about stats only, it calculate with cost also. They can have excelent stat if their cost is high.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

fei123456 wrote:Why don't you use it in tournament games?

Because making mercs from the saloon is random, it depletes your goldmines really fast, and mercs require a card to be really OP. If you go full mercs it's really slow, because you can train only from one saloon and you have to ship adv mercs. And if you don't go full mercs, which is probs the better way to do it, adv mercs isn't that impactful anymore.
As umeu said, most people really just don't know how to play against mercs. They just sit back and let you mass your strong units and send upgrades. Honestly I wish there was someone else of my level who played a lot of mercs, that way I'd be able to play against him and show that it's not so strong, at least in most match ups / on most maps / with most mercs.

fei123456 wrote:I just lost to german mass stradiots badly yesterday. Upgraded stradiot has 700+ hp, 30% rr, AND 7.25 speed. I'll need 14 goons to one shot a stradiot! Goons dont counter stradiots at all here. Stradiots counters goons.

Yeah true, it's kinda the special perk of strads, that you can't kite them so well. But if you have cav to block them and goons behind, you'll be fine tbh. Even only goons, with a solid mass of them and proper kiting, will do the job. Also try to ship cav combat, after all he also invested a card in advanced mercs.

fei123456 wrote:German has 20% hp/atk card. Dutch has 15% hp/atk cav/inf combat card.

Dutch age 3 inf combat card works only for dutch infantry (skirms, halbs and pikes). So actually dutch can upgrade only cav mercs, aka hackapells/stradiots/manchus/black riders, so only 4 units out of 12 age 3 mercs available. Not that good

fei123456 wrote:Mercs are age 5 units in age 3, and with upgrades they're just insane! Their incredible stats make units counter system less effective here: think about german 9 blackriders.

Yeah mercs are more or less age 5 units, but they're so expensive and slow to train. If you get pushed after you aged to fortess, and try to train stradiots from your saloon, you'll get a batch of 2-3, and without the advanced mercs upgrade yet, it's really not scary. The problem is your opponents mostly sit and let you ship your upgrades and then cry about mercs.
Even yesterday, when I was streaming, I lost a game doing mercs against risintiger. This guy is really bad, he ages up with 12/10 as germany, and his build orders make no sense. But he just massed a ton of units and pushed me just when I hit fortress, and it was just impossible to hold with only a couple unupgraded mercs. Even the next game, I won, but I think I lost my tc to his colonial push lol. It's also really easy to pressure the goldmines when someone commits to full mercs.
That's why semi mercs is much safer, you can ship units and hold, but then again it kinda kills the purpose of the mercs being OP with advanced mercs, and you have to mix a saloon without knowing if it will be useful or not.

fei123456 wrote:So why few players use them in tournaments? Yes you don't know what will appear in your saloon, but it's just 200w. Not 600w.

200w is still a big deal for germany, you always need your wood badly.

fei123456 wrote:Esoc maps always have 2×2000 mine.

No they don't

fei123456 wrote:Dutch have banks. And they often have to send bad shipments, such as 4 hussars, to defend a colo timing. They usually don't have food to train hussar under pressure. (See rapha brit/german with stanley dutch games.)
But dutch always have gold. If they have a saloon they may train 4 stradiots/hackapells, together with 8 skirm 6 mm, they can do a nice counter strike under tc and win. Melee units such as 5 landskecht/5 swiss pikemen can also deal tons of damage to hussar/pike/longbow combo under TC.

I think you underestimate the amount of garbage mercs you can get in the saloon. You really don't get hand cav every game. Also some mercs are really situational, like the swiss pikes you mentioned; they can be quite ok for example in german mirror or vs dutch, but they can also be absolute garbage, I remember trying to beat india with full swiss pikes, was painful against sepoy gurkha.
Also btw, if your opponent timing pushes you in colo, and decides to right click your saloon, you won't get a batch out, because mercs train so slowly. Especially the expensive ones. And idk how you get the resources to train such expensive units while being pushed, even with banks you don't just make 4 strads (1200g) so easily. Saloon is really a bad way to hold a timing, it can become strong sometimes, but later on.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

deleted_user wrote:
umeu wrote:Problem with it is that you dont know what you get. It can have stradiots, it can have a useless unit too. Or just not the one you need. You can only find lut what it is by building a 200w building which may he useless. Who wants to take such a risk in a tournament, especially when the strat is not much if any stronger than regular play. Thing is most people just dont know how to deal with it. Constant pressure on the mines makes this strat hard to pull off, and the fact that the units are aloften expensive and high impact, the difference between getting that one extra stradiot can be 5 coin, but it can swing a fight. And you only make it from 1 byilding, cant ever double saloon or anything. The surprise factor makes it suitable for qs, but not for tournaments as decent preparation should deal with it np

the quality of your idea's are getting pathetic tbh.

He's actually right, and he expressed it quite well, what exactly is pathetic here?
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3283
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by fei123456 »

Haha i lost to that risintiger too cuz i cant understand how he age up 4:10 with 2 TPs. I was angry about that till i see your reply :smile:
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

yea he just relies on the fact that renegados are cheap and train slowly, so you don't need eco to make them constantly. And he ages up quite fast, with a tp also, since he doesn't make vils. But it's still really garbage.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Mercs with the usual insane german shipments is prettu tough to deal with tbh
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Don't see why it would be harder than standard ger
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Don't see why it would be harder than standard ger

Depends on the unit in the saloon, if its a good anti cav merc then the usual goon cav composition doesnt do so well which is vital for some civs to get a good trade
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well then it's up to you to adapt to another composition, and theres still the problem that you deplete your goldmines so hard. Also needs to get lucky having a good merc in saloon in the first place
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France Rikikipu
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1679
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
ESO: p-of
Location: In your base

Re: German/dutch mercs?

Post by Rikikipu »

Merc with china is viable in some extent too. Especially on RE you get starve really easily so a saloon allows you to product units even if you are hunt screwed. And even if the saloon got bad units you can still do iron troops which are really good units

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV