Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

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United States of America _H2O
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

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Post by _H2O »

Imo india is largely about being as greedy as possible using your ability to call 14 minutes with an Agra and shipment pop.

Lately I was leaning towards tp in transition to fast stage coach. I have never been as behind the tp as an exp generating mechanism. That is where I differ from the goodspeed camp. I find exp is baked into all other resources since you get exp for fighting and building. I also find the return on exp to exponentially decay so to invest in it puts you in a very narrow window to benefit.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Garja »

Well the greedy way has proven to be out of fashion in the current meta, unless it is used to reach fortress within a more reasonable time (and with enough eco to support unit spam, unit ups, housing, etc.). Stagecoach hardly adds anything to the market based builds except for some more lasting potential (due to infinite resource income). India only really struggles vs FF builds and even if you get away with max greed eventually you struggle for map control because your units are outranged and you won't have enough mass to crush the opponent at any point.
These is also something to leverage from age1 treasuring but I don't think that's enough nor consistent enough to be considered when theory-crafting.
Playing classic greedy India in the current meta is like doing the most reasonable thing but admitting it doesn't cut it anyway.

Probably in the current meta, vs good semi FF builds, it is just better to focus on optimizing the rushing part to make the most damage and have the most efficient eco progression. I think India gets relatively more indirect VS value by successfully damaging the opponent than squeezing more eco in an passive greedy build. The advantage of going for the rush play is also to delay the game while freeing pop for later. It also gives value to all the colonial cards while a greedy build eventually doesn't find any use in 5 sepoy or 4 sowar. Since you can't force the opponent in colonial you at least use India colonial perks when they actually count.
Simply put, it's impossible to outscale a semi FF build while not being out-teched if you don't somehow force the opponent into a sub-optimal build.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by WickedCossack »

Garja wrote:Probably in the current meta, vs good semi FF builds, it is just better to focus on optimizing the rushing part to make the most damage and have the most efficient eco progression. I think India gets relatively more indirect VS value by successfully damaging the opponent than squeezing more eco in an passive greedy build. The advantage of going for the rush play is also to delay the game while freeing pop for later. It also gives value to all the colonial cards while a greedy build eventually doesn't find any use in 5 sepoy or 4 sowar. Since you can't force the opponent in colonial you at least use India colonial perks when they actually count.
Simply put, it's impossible to outscale a semi FF build while not being out-teched if you don't somehow force the opponent into a sub-optimal build.


Yea I think you could be right against the semi-FF builds. This is what India struggles with against most and I somewhat feel it is better to rush. I've explored loads and loads of counter semi builds but against France and Germany it feels like you're just putting yourself at 49-51 situation at best, though they are good builds and you can win it does feel just that little bit like an uphill climb.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Asateo »

What would be an indian way to beat the dutch?
I watched some recs and the dutch usually come on top. Only a consulate rush by @_H2O was succesfull, but it's not reproducible for me.

Edit: I already tried the karni mata build, they still outboom you in my experience...
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Vickyxxx5528 »

I'm a beginner elifent, I kinda wondered whether someone can teach me, I really cant learn from videos, I need explaining! Is there a experienced elifent teacher out there, Love to learn india or japan, PR25 and OVER only.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by NyxAchlys9 »

Vickyxxx5528 wrote:I'm a beginner elifent, I kinda wondered whether someone can teach me, I really cant learn from videos, I need explaining! Is there a experienced elifent teacher out there, Love to learn india or japan, PR25 and OVER only.

@hleung is an elifent he says so and i learn from him
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by deleted_user0 »

Asateo wrote:What would be an indian way to beat the dutch?
I watched some recs and the dutch usually come on top. Only a consulate rush by @_H2O was succesfull, but it's not reproducible for me.

Edit: I already tried the karni mata build, they still outboom you in my experience...



Re or ep?
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Asateo »

umeu wrote:
Asateo wrote:What would be an indian way to beat the dutch?
I watched some recs and the dutch usually come on top. Only a consulate rush by @_H2O was succesfull, but it's not reproducible for me.

Edit: I already tried the karni mata build, they still outboom you in my experience...



Re or ep?


Re
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by fei123456 »

On Re india just do forward agra rush.
If dutch don't build a rax: sepoy rush
If he train skirm: do a gurkha sowar timing.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by deleted_user0 »

Asateo wrote:
umeu wrote:
Asateo wrote:What would be an indian way to beat the dutch?
I watched some recs and the dutch usually come on top. Only a consulate rush by @_H2O was succesfull, but it's not reproducible for me.

Edit: I already tried the karni mata build, they still outboom you in my experience...



Re or ep?


Re


don't listen to fei.

On re, this strat shouldn't fail on tp maps. but probably should work with slight adaptation on non-tp maps too.



Strategy: karni mata zamburak semi ff into zamburak ghurka supplemented with urumi and mahouts. do a sowar switch if needed later on.

Build order: if 400w start, make a tp and a house. If 300w start, make only 1 house. age to colonial with 13 vils. you should have 800f around 3:05 build the karni mata in a good spot in your base, next to trees and mines preferably. Put all vils on wood, including the vil that started the wonder. If you had 400w start, gather 200w for a consulate, then gather for a market. keep making vils in the meantime, don't be afraid to have a little idle time in order to get your consulate and market up in transition. If you had 300w start, gather 200w for a tp, then gather 200w for a consulate. Keep training vils, but again, don't be afraid to have a little idle time. Skip your market.
When you reach age2, make a stable, start training a zamburak. Scout the dutch base to see what they're doing. If they make a stable, make 5 zamburak. If they have no stable coming up, or if it's a rax. Cancel the zamburak. If you want to be pro, keep queuing and canceling the zamburak.
In the meanwhile, get all your market ups and gather res to age up. Age up with the tower of victory. Put 8 vils on the wonder. While aging, make zamburak and drop a barracks to make ghurka. in fortress, use 800w to get veteran zamb and ghurka + more houses.


Card order:
400w start
Little trickle, faith agreements, 300 export (go french consulate, get 500w, then 500c, cancel alliance, go ottoman and get 4 vils), if you made zamburaks send 600c, if you didn't make zamburaks, send big trickle. if you are on a good tp map, you can problably do both. (while aging to III, if you have shipment, send 4 sowar, and cancel it if dutch doesnt make a quick skirmisher push.), in fortress, scout what they do, if skirmisher heavy, send 8 ghurka or 2 mahout/6 sowar. if ruyter heavy, send 8 ghurka or 7 urumi. if hussar heavy, send 9 zambs. go from there.

300w start or no tp map,
little trickle, 300xport (go french consulate, send 500c, wait to send 300w a bit later, then ally with brits), if you made zamburaks send 600c, if you didn't make zamburaks, send big trickle. rest is same


if you do it optimally, you should be in colonial at 5 minutes, and in fortress around 9. if you make zambs and get idled by raiding, you will be in fortress around 10. but you can make the units you need during transition.

when you're nearing 400 xport, in some cases it might be nice to go to 450, get petards and petard the banks.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Asateo »

umeu wrote:Strat


Will definitely try :!:
Thx :flowers:
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Asateo »

Tried it out and it worked. (above strat by Umeu)

Is it possible to put it on the strategy wall directly to the post? Otherwise it'll probably wain away in the thread...
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by pecelot »

The thread itself is all great and already on the Strategy Wall, don't worry! :flowers:
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Aizamk »

Asateo wrote:Tried it out and it worked. (above strat by Umeu)

:cry:
Not again...
I'll admit that this time the only similarity is (on 400w) the use of TP, trickle, GFA and 300 export, though. Then there's differences (no rajput or FI in the build). At least it's not as bad as the copyrighting of china petard ff :flowers:
oranges.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Mitoe »

Aizamk wrote:At least it's not as bad as the copyrighting of china petard ff :flowers:

Whatever could you mean? :roll:
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Aizamk »

Mitoe wrote:
Aizamk wrote:At least it's not as bad as the copyrighting of china petard ff :flowers:

Whatever could you mean? :roll:

Nothing, nothing at all, no relation to me! After all, that was obviously taken from acergod.
Don't worry I haven't even mentioned your port all-in native rush on Pampas Sierras that tournament.
oranges.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by deleted_user0 »

Aizamk wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Aizamk wrote:At least it's not as bad as the copyrighting of china petard ff :flowers:

Whatever could you mean? :roll:

Nothing, nothing at all, no relation to me! After all, that was obviously taken from acergod.
Don't worry I haven't even mentioned your port all-in native rush on Pampas Sierras that tournament.


psht... i was making tp's while you were still in your daddies tusk...
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Lunatic_Fringe »

This guide is wicked :D
I was really waiting for you to write an Indian guide, knowing that India is your favourite civ. Everything is very well explained, and the scouting pattern is really dope.
Thank you @WickedCossack !
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Mitoe »

Aizamk wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Aizamk wrote:At least it's not as bad as the copyrighting of china petard ff :flowers:

Whatever could you mean? :roll:

Nothing, nothing at all, no relation to me! After all, that was obviously taken from acergod.
Don't worry I haven't even mentioned your port all-in native rush on Pampas Sierras that tournament.

Heehee
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Just spam some sex sepoy and run to enemy base.

But honestly, india eco/age 3 is so fucking slow that you can't let opponent semi. And the problem is that you need to ship 500f siege eles to kill cannons, and after that they are useless. But atleast india has playing variations. Not the same boring shit as fre/germ/brit every single game. The sad part is that aggressive agra is the only reasonable way to play some MUs.

In my opinion fast age should be nerfed for euro civs. Its just too op. +10 or 15 seconds maybe. This semi ff meta is just so boring. Then maybe also india could play it other way.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by pecelot »

With Siege Elephants you could, you know, siege some buildings :?
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by tedere12 »

pecelot wrote:With Siege Elephants you could, you know, siege some buildings :?

you do that with flails
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by deleted_user »

tedere12 wrote:
pecelot wrote:With Siege Elephants you could, you know, siege some buildings :?

you do that with flails

NOT RECCOMENDED
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by deleted_user0 »

You guys are noobs. You do it all with sepoys. You kill cannons with sepoys. You siege buildings with sepoys. Cav? Sepoys. Goons? Sepoys. Skirms? Switch on lag, and sepoys.
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Re: Indian Starter Pack for the Beginner Elifent

Post by Aizamk »

deleted_user wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
pecelot wrote:With Siege Elephants you could, you know, siege some buildings :?

you do that with flails

NOT RECCOMENDED

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I have now made a correction to your reply, and that correction is indisputably correct.
oranges.

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