Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

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Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

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Post by fei123456 »

He's busy studying in UK and has to leave AOE3 for months. He finished a nice guide before he leaves, telling us about how to beat the annoying fish boom, aka "sea turtle".

Water boom (and walls, frigates, monitors) are nightmare to many players. Different players have their different ideas to fight this, but these build orders are only available in certain cases.

If your opponent is doing a fish boom, should you play water vs him?
1. How much will the water affect the land? I mean, if he controls the water, will his frigate/monitor threaten your land units/buildings a lot?
2. Does he have schooner? And how about his land eco?
3. How much resource (the number of whales is the main issue) are there in the sea? And how much on the land?
4. How many trees are there near the shore?

1. If it's a "yes", such as hispaniola, borneo, esoc indonesia, then you should always play water. Unless it's a french/german water boom.
2. If your opponent's civ has both good land eco and schooner (british is the best example), you should play water ofc. But if he's not playing british, you can see point 3 and 4.
3. If there are enough resources on land (stagecoach etc), or if there're no whale/few whales in water, you can try a pure land play vs him. (Not available if he's british or ottoman.)
4. If your land units can stop his vils from chopping wood, you can try a land play too: but you should keep raiding his vills, which really acquire some micro.

There're 14 civs in TAD, and I would put them into 6 tiers (in water boom):
Tier S: british, ottoman
Tier 1: russia, spain, dutch, portuguese
Tier 2: japan, india
Tier 3: aztec
Tier 4: chinese, french, german
Tier 5: sioux, iro

Tier 5: If you lose to sioux/iro water boom, then you just got outplayed. (Poissondu beats garja's aztec with iro water boom LUL.)

Tier 4: French and german don't have schooner, and they have to put tons of resources into fishing boats. So their water boom is just a troll play, but these 2 civs have decent land eco, and if they really trained many fishing boats, things will be much more difficult.
China don't have schooner either (70w fishing boat is bad). And their age 2 units are too weak. Easy win.

Tier 3: There're 2 types of aztec fish boom: sending schooners early, or 10wp boom into fish boom.
Aztec has bad early eco so early schooner is just bad. So most aztec players will do a 10wp boom before building docks. Still, you have to scout well: aztec can do a scary timing push after 10wp too, so if you play water blindly you'll likely be destroyed.
Wp boom is slow anyway, so you can do a stagecoach boom, and mass units, push his base. Canoes do little damage to land units (quite different from caravels). Try to kill his houses first, and he'll easily get popped.

Tier 2: I'm not sure if it's right to put these 2 civs here, especially japan. We all know how insane Kynesie's japan water boom is, and japan even have the best warships among 14 civs (in theory). But still, 70w boat <<< 40w boat.
Generally you have to play water vs india/japan: they both have good land eco, AND offshore support.

There're 2 types of japan fish boom too: shrine boom into water boom, or direct water boom (kynesie's style).
If he's doing the former one, just rush him. It's too greedy.
If he's doing kynesie's build, or if he IS kynesie.... I haven't really played vs kynesie's japan water boom, so I'm not sure how scary it could be.
I suggest a water play vs him, or even sending schooners yourself. If you have 40w fishing boat, you can easily mass fishing boats early (while japan can't). And funes (japanese caravel) are weak before offshore support are sent, so an early 3 caravel rush can hurt him a lot.
But funes are so good after +5 range, so you need to age up before him, and keep pressure with frigate. Japanese frigate (named tekkouson) are actually stronger than european frigate, but they don't have tekkouson shipment in age 3. And if he reaches fortress age you can even go industrial age, and train heavy cannons from 2 factories. In late games you should keep 3 frigates, control at least 50% water, and attack his land base.

And india. Indian land eco is even worse than japan, but they still have offshore support (does ES ever realize how imbalance this shipment is?)
India tend to train fishing boats after playing land for a while. But they have another kind of water boom, which can be as scary as british vc+schooner! After some land boom (foreign logging), send bombay marine (-40% training time), advanced dock (-33%), you can train any kind of ships, fishing boats, caravel, frigate, in nearly ZERO seconds! He can easily have 50+ fishing boats in no time.
Still, these kind of boom is vulnerable. Early land pressure, caravel rush, or early pressure into frigate are all available. Scout and adapt.

Tier 1: See above.
Some tips:
1. Don't lost too many land units to his caravels/frigates. Use your warship to fight his warship.
2. Try to kill his explorer. If his explorer dies faraway from the shore, wall his hero + kill his TC = free win.
3. Stagecoach before water play is good, but be sure that you can finish your dock.
4. Age up earlier, frigate>>caravel.
5. if you're not japan or china, don't use mortars to fight his frigates.

Tier S: We all know british water boom is OP. but why do I list ottoman here too?
Ottoman is too fast. They can have 4 galleys before 6:00 to crush your water, or reach fortress age at around 8:00, with 40+ vills/boats. And the fish boom + revolt endless imperial hussar...
But galley has low HP, and die fast to your caravel/tower/dock etc. And they don't have age 2 offshore support either.

And british. VC boom into water boom is just unstoppable: have 20 extra vills at 6:00, even before he goes water... with 30+ vills chopping he can easily do a 3, 4, 5 dock boom, and they have offshore support, and 2 monitor shipment... And what's more, even if you totally stopped his water play, he still has 20 extra vills on land, and can still beat you (and you may put too much resources into warships)... Unbeatable in theory.
So if you really have to play vs british on water maps,
1. Raid his vills, and do stagecoach boom, so you won't get outboomed too much.
2. Do a 3 caravel rush, and send schooners later, use your fishing boats to take water.
3. Try to raid his chopping vills.
4. Frigate>caravel, but you'll need at least two of them.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by HUMMAN »

thanks!
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by tedere12 »

thats a nice guide on a not very frequently discussed subject
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by NekoBerk »

Interesting to know that Brits are the best water booming, is a shame be a british player and don't know how to water boom properly lol, a simple russian rush can counter my water boom in Sangueney for example.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by Papist »

NekoBerk wrote:Interesting to know that Brits are the best water booming, is a shame be a british player and don't know how to water boom properly lol, a simple russian rush can counter my water boom in Sangueney for example.


Make more walls
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by NyxAchlys9 »

Papist wrote:
NekoBerk wrote:Interesting to know that Brits are the best water booming, is a shame be a british player and don't know how to water boom properly lol, a simple russian rush can counter my water boom in Sangueney for example.


Make more walls

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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by rsy »

Papist wrote:
NekoBerk wrote:Interesting to know that Brits are the best water booming, is a shame be a british player and don't know how to water boom properly lol, a simple russian rush can counter my water boom in Sangueney for example.


Make more walls

Put lbows behind walls, they have the best range of all age 2 units. Make like 10 or 15 musks max, create chokes in case he gets through so that cossacks wouldn't surround lbs completely. On re it was much better with the 3k hp walls
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by tedere12 »

you boom in land and then drop some docks down and boom in water as well
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by iLolicon »

Forjustice outranks me, but could you ask him to clarify on why aztec early schooner is bad? IME Aztec is by far the most powerful civ on water. Any time I play aztec on water I just do, 3v - schooners - fast age up - 700w and I have never had any issue, quickly taking the economic lead with 3/4 docks and nearly all vills on wood. Even if the opponent tries to rush my docks with caravels I can just make a couple of canoes and hold, they train so fast. Yes aztec can't damage your land units much with boats but it doesn't matter at that point because his economy will be so far ahead that he easily out-mass you on land too.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by yurashic »

Usually the best thing to do is to play greedy pure land and slowroll with a lot of artillery.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by tedere12 »

iLolicon wrote:Forjustice outranks me, but could you ask him to clarify on why aztec early schooner is bad? IME Aztec is by far the most powerful civ on water. Any time I play aztec on water I just do, 3v - schooners - fast age up - 700w and I have never had any issue, quickly taking the economic lead with 3/4 docks and nearly all vills on wood. Even if the opponent tries to rush my docks with caravels I can just make a couple of canoes and hold, they train so fast. Yes aztec can't damage your land units much with boats but it doesn't matter at that point because his economy will be so far ahead that he easily out-mass you on land too.
they cant get to age 3
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by iLolicon »

tedere12 wrote:
iLolicon wrote:Forjustice outranks me, but could you ask him to clarify on why aztec early schooner is bad? IME Aztec is by far the most powerful civ on water. Any time I play aztec on water I just do, 3v - schooners - fast age up - 700w and I have never had any issue, quickly taking the economic lead with 3/4 docks and nearly all vills on wood. Even if the opponent tries to rush my docks with caravels I can just make a couple of canoes and hold, they train so fast. Yes aztec can't damage your land units much with boats but it doesn't matter at that point because his economy will be so far ahead that he easily out-mass you on land too.
they cant get to age 3


Yes they can. You are doing a firepit boom behind the water boom of course and putting down some WHs. You can hold easily enough in colonial and age up when you are ready but there's no rush to get to fortress anyway with that sort of water eco, the aztec unit spam is real.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by fei123456 »

Canoes without WP+water dance lose to caravels badly.
And they lose to land push too. No infinite minutemen, and canoes can't help defend the base.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by deleted_user0 »

canoe wreck caravels when both have no upgrades. 8 canoes > 2 caravels. but vs land they are indeed worse.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by pecelot »

fei123456 wrote:Japanese frigate (named tekkorson?)

Tekkousen.

fei123456 wrote:And india. India land eco is even worse than japan, but they still have offshore support (does ES ever realize how imbalance this shipment is?)

You're approximately 8 years late with such a complaint!

fei123456 wrote:India tend to train fishing boats after playing land for a while. But they have another kind of water boom, which can be as scary as british vc+schooner! After some land boom (foreign logging), send bombay navy (-40% training time), advanced dock (-33%), you can train any kind of ships, fishing boats, caravel, frigate, in nearly ZERO seconds! He can easily have 50+ fishing boats in no time.

It's actually „Bombay Marine", but an interesting find indeed. More exact numbers: 6 seconds to train a Fishing Boat, 8 seconds — a Galleon, 10 — a Caravel, a Frigate and a Monitor.

fei123456 wrote:japan even have the best warships among 14 civs (in theory)

How come? Let's compare. Fully-upgraded Japanese warships with the Improved Warships (+25% attack & +25% HP) and European Cannons (+20% attack & +5 range) home-city shipments versus fully-upgraded British fleet with both of the aforementioned in addition to the Naval Gunners (+25% attack) & TEAM Monitor Combat (+15% attack & +15% HP) cards:

  • Fune vs Caravel

    Image vs Image

    Caravel: 0.5 less speed, 78 more attack (115%), 67 more broadside attack (122%), 2 more range


  • Atakabune vs Galleon

    Image vs Image

    Galleon: 1 more speed, 875 less HP (25%), 38 more attack (64%), 2 more range


  • Tekkousen vs Frigate

    Image vs Image

    Frigate: 22 more attack (11%), 24 more broadside attack (26%), 2 more range.


  • Japanese Monitor vs British Monitor [RE]:

    Image vs Image

    British Monitor: 180 more HP (6%), 32 more attack (16%), 80 more long-range attack (16%).

By:

(in theory)


I understood them as fully upgraded. Let's have a look now at warships comparison „in practice" — non-upgraded:

  • Fune vs Caravel

    Image vs Image

    Caravel: 0.5 less speed, 35 more attack (88%), 25 more broadside attack (100%), 2 more range


  • Atakabune vs Galleon

    Image vs Image

    Galleon: 1 more speed, 500 less HP (25%), 15 more attack (43%), 2 more range


  • Tekkousen vs Frigate

    Image vs Image

    Frigate: 5 more broadside attack (14%), 2 more range.


  • Japanese Monitor vs British Monitor [RE]:

    Image vs Image

    British Monitor: identical.

I guess, then, that your point doesn't stand anymore :?

fei123456 wrote:But their [Ottoman] age 2 warship (I forgot its name lol)

Galley.


NyxAchlys9 wrote:
Papist wrote:
NekoBerk wrote:Interesting to know that Brits are the best water booming, is a shame be a british player and don't know how to water boom properly lol, a simple russian rush can counter my water boom in Sangueney for example.


Make more walls

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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by Asateo »

pecelot wrote:It's actually „Bombay Marine", but an interesting find indeed. More exact numbers: 6 seconds to train a Fishing Boat, 8 seconds — a Galleon, 10 — a Caravel, a Frigate and a Monitor.


Would it every be viable though? Sending 2 cards, just to have fishing boats come out fast...
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by tedere12 »

maybe in very late game sea war, doubt it is possible to reach that point
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by deleted_user0 »

@pecelot the way damage is depicted on japanese ships is different from euro ships iirc, and the broadside doesnt actually do less damage. Its same reason that a caravels broadside is so much higher than a frigates, even though the dps is similar. I think the damage is listed per gun (and frigates have like 5 guns)

In any case, best navy is easily the aztec one for water combat, and brits for water vs land.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by lordraphael »

"He finished a nice guide before he leaves, telling us about how to beat the annoying fish boom, aka "sea turtle"."
The divine being left us mortal scrubs sth before he ascended into heaven, thats so kind of him :)
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by fei123456 »

@pecelot Fune shoots much faster than european caravel

I remember that Kynesie did a test before, showing tekkouson>frigate, fune>=caravel
it's a *.pdf file but i can't find it now
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by Asateo »

fei123456 wrote:@pecelot Fune shoots much faster than european caravel

I remember that Kynesie did a test before, showing tekkouson>frigate, fune>=caravel
it's a *.pdf file but i can't find it now


Tit did the statistics: http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?t=11401.

Caravel>Fune, Attackabune> all (of his price range), Tekkousen>Fregate
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by n0el »

lordraphael wrote:"He finished a nice guide before he leaves, telling us about how to beat the annoying fish boom, aka "sea turtle"."
The divine being left us mortal scrubs sth before he ascended into heaven, thats so kind of him :)


Now lordrofl can play in the next tourney without fear of death!
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by Kaiserklein »

@pecelot fune got higher rof than caravels. Atakabunes are cheaper than galleons. Also no one ever sends that age 4 monitor card, it's really bad. You can't compare like this
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by pecelot »

Oh, I'm so sorry, guys, I just wasn't aware of such stats, I must have missed the thread.
Nevertheless, a fully-upgraded British Caravel has a huge attack advantage over Fune, so the former might just come out on top — I'll add that to my to-check list :smile: Of course, Atakabunes are cheaper than Galleons, but this type of a warship isn't your go-to choice and you usually add them once you made most/all of Caravels or Frigates, meaning that you can have quite an economy then, which in turn makes the cost less important. The Tekkousen vs Frigate battle seems kind of unclear for me based on the evidence linked ITT (viewtopic.php?f=29&t=11401#p257994). The TEAM Monitor Combat I counted just for the sake of it, though it may find its place in water-heavy decks — either way, the British Monitor still has the edge. Anyways, the actual monitor combat is for the most part irrelevant.
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Re: Forjustice's Anti-Waterboom Guide (Deluxe Version)

Post by Kickass_OP »

fei123456 wrote:He's busy studying in UK and has to leave AOE3 for months. He finished a nice guide before he leaves, telling us about how to beat the annoying fish boom, aka "sea turtle".

Water boom (and walls, frigates, monitors) are nightmare to many players. Different players have their different ideas to fight this, but these build orders are only available in certain cases.

If your opponent is doing a fish boom, should you play water vs him?
1. How much will the water affect the land? I mean, if he controls the water, will his frigate/monitor threaten your land units/buildings a lot?
2. Does he have schooner? And how about his land eco?
3. How much resource (the number of whales is the main issue) are there in the sea? And how much on the land?
4. How many trees are there near the shore?

1. If it's a "yes", such as hispaniola, borneo, esoc indonesia, then you should always play water. Unless it's a french/german water boom.
2. If your opponent's civ has both good land eco and schooner (british is the best example), you should play water ofc. But if he's not playing british, you can see point 3 and 4.
3. If there are enough resources on land (stagecoach etc), or if there're no whale/few whales in water, you can try a pure land play vs him. (Not available if he's british or ottoman.)
4. If your land units can stop his vils from chopping wood, you can try a land play too: but you should keep raiding his vills, which really acquire some micro.

There're 14 civs in TAD, and I would put them into 6 tiers (in water boom):
Tier S: british, ottoman
Tier 1: russia, spain, dutch, portuguese
Tier 2: japan, india
Tier 3: aztec
Tier 4: chinese, french, german
Tier 5: sioux, iro

Tier 5: If you lose to sioux/iro water boom, then you just got outplayed. (Poissondu beats garja's aztec with iro water boom LUL.)

Tier 4: French and german don't have schooner, and they have to put tons of resources into fishing boats. So their water boom is just a troll play, but these 2 civs have decent land eco, and if they really trained many fishing boats, things will be much more difficult.
China don't have schooner either (70w fishing boat is bad). And their age 2 units are too weak. Easy win.

Tier 3: There're 2 types of aztec fish boom: sending schooners early, or 10wp boom into fish boom.
Aztec has bad early eco so early schooner is just bad. So most aztec players will do a 10wp boom before building docks. Still, you have to scout well: aztec can do a scary timing push after 10wp too, so if you play water blindly you'll likely be destroyed.
Wp boom is slow anyway, so you can do a stagecoach boom, and mass units, push his base. Canoes do little damage to land units (quite different from caravels). Try to kill his houses first, and he'll easily get popped.

Tier 2: I'm not sure if it's right to put these 2 civs here, especially japan. We all know how insane Kynesie's japan water boom is, and japan even have the best warships among 14 civs (in theory). But still, 70w boat <<< 40w boat.
Generally you have to play water vs india/japan: they both have good land eco, AND offshore support.

There're 2 types of japan fish boom too: shrine boom into water boom, or direct water boom (kynesie's style).
If he's doing the former one, just rush him. It's too greedy.
If he's doing kynesie's build, or if he IS kynesie.... I haven't really played vs kynesie's japan water boom, so I'm not sure how scary it could be.
I suggest a water play vs him, or even sending schooners yourself. If you have 40w fishing boat, you can easily mass fishing boats early (while japan can't). And funes (japanese caravel) are weak before offshore support are sent, so an early 3 caravel rush can hurt him a lot.
But funes are so good after +5 range, so you need to age up before him, and keep pressure with frigate. Japanese frigate (named tekkouson) are actually stronger than european frigate, but they don't have tekkouson shipment in age 3. And if he reaches fortress age you can even go industrial age, and train heavy cannons from 2 factories. In late games you should keep 3 frigates, control at least 50% water, and attack his land base.

And india. Indian land eco is even worse than japan, but they still have offshore support (does ES ever realize how imbalance this shipment is?)
India tend to train fishing boats after playing land for a while. But they have another kind of water boom, which can be as scary as british vc+schooner! After some land boom (foreign logging), send bombay marine (-40% training time), advanced dock (-33%), you can train any kind of ships, fishing boats, caravel, frigate, in nearly ZERO seconds! He can easily have 50+ fishing boats in no time.
Still, these kind of boom is vulnerable. Early land pressure, caravel rush, or early pressure into frigate are all available. Scout and adapt.

Tier 1: See above.
Some tips:
1. Don't lost too many land units to his caravels/frigates. Use your warship to fight his warship.
2. Try to kill his explorer. If his explorer dies faraway from the shore, wall his hero + kill his TC = free win.
3. Stagecoach before water play is good, but be sure that you can finish your dock.
4. Age up earlier, frigate>>caravel.
5. if you're not japan or china, don't use mortars to fight his frigates.

Tier S: We all know british water boom is OP. but why do I list ottoman here too?
Ottoman is too fast. They can have 4 galleys before 6:00 to crush your water, or reach fortress age at around 8:00, with 40+ vills/boats. And the fish boom + revolt endless imperial hussar...
But galley has low HP, and die fast to your caravel/tower/dock etc. And they don't have age 2 offshore support either.

And british. VC boom into water boom is just unstoppable: have 20 extra vills at 6:00, even before he goes water... with 30+ vills chopping he can easily do a 3, 4, 5 dock boom, and they have offshore support, and 2 monitor shipment... And what's more, even if you totally stopped his water play, he still has 20 extra vills on land, and can still beat you (and you may put too much resources into warships)... Unbeatable in theory.
So if you really have to play vs british on water maps,
1. Raid his vills, and do stagecoach boom, so you won't get outboomed too much.
2. Do a 3 caravel rush, and send schooners later, use your fishing boats to take water.
3. Try to raid his chopping vills.
4. Frigate>caravel, but you'll need at least two of them.

Nice!

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