French vs. Japan

Germany _LeGiT
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French vs. Japan

Post by _LeGiT »

Yo Whatsup Boys!

Lately I´ve been loosing to Japan almost all the time.
Even if the game is going well I still loose in the end and I can´t seem to figure out a way to win OMG:
So maybe you can help me or give some inspiration in how to beat Japan as French.
So first of all I´ve tried everything from colonial xbow/pik rush musket/huss or musket semi ff 5pik semi ff then 2falc timing push or 1000wood shipment eco heavy game. Literally every strategy in the French book has been given a try by me lol.
Even when i get a good start musks do good damage , i age up quickly, kill shrines everywhere , I get a good timing in with falcs , i micro hard .
In the end their eco and mass just gets the better of me.
Do you know any Strats that worked for you or do you know any important facts I should know in order to win against Japan? Or just a simple "I play Japan and this is what makes me go crazy if a french does it" would help me out.
Or do you just quit and mirror him next time :D

Thanks Boys!
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European Union Asateo
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by Asateo »

Hey, like lots of people you have encountered the japan problem. (you get outboomed in the long run)
I can't really help you with france, since I don't often play the civ, but would like to point you to the recorded games sections (since you're new). Plenty of games from top players, and there will certainly be fre -japan matchup's there.

http://eso-community.net/recorded-games.php

Hope some others might go more in depth for you.
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
No Flag tedere12
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by tedere12 »

I think as france you can open with 2 different ways against japan. Either open with 2 raxes and start making bows and pikes, or do a naked FF. Obviously people on the top level prefer a bow pike semi ff with a stagecoach boom but I think its not as good for these reasons: If you take the trading posts before you age you are not gonna be able to protect them, as xbows don't counter ashigaru at all. So you are gonna have to spend resources rebuilding them and waste precious time reclaiming them in age 3. Also you get later in age 3 and waste resources on units that are going to be useless once you age up. For example if you age up, your pikes are not gonna be able to siege any shrines (you can get 1 or 2 shrines max) and your bows won't be enough to protect them.
I like a 4 villager 700w naked ff vs japan which is risky ofc, if japan notices they can rush you with ashigaru and maybe win but usually japan ages late and most maps are pretty large so you are safe. I like to ship either 2 falcs or 8 skirms depending on how many units japan has out on the map, if they have made a lot of ashi you are gonna need skirms for example. Usually they try to follow up so the 2 falcs with 5 goon 5 skirm are gonna to great work and kill many shrines and let you reclaim map while enemy is aging. Next card is usually 1k wood for me too take tp line and boom and maybe add an artillery foundry. next usually 1k gold or unit shipments depending on the situation. Note that you are gonna have to add a arsenal to research the goon skrim and cav upgrades when you get a good mass (really useful upgrades, make your army stand up to the japanese one). Usually japan has to come out of their base because they have no shrines on hunts and you have a tp line with stagecoach. Then you hold their timing and win. If they age you can age as well which is the safest option imo and try to add culvs cuz they gonna probably go for ashi flaming arrow.
With bow pike rush, the game is becoming really simple, you basically try to contain shrine pop while idling japan with xbows under tc and you add hus from 700 coin and go for the kill. It works usually but a yumi+ wall is gonna hold easily.
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United States of America Hidddy_
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by Hidddy_ »

5-10 pike or 5-10 musk semi into early fortress cannon timing. Control the shrines in age 2 and kill explorers if possible, you have your own explorer and nat scout to keep track of them so make use of those two guys. Cannons should be 1st or 2nd shipment in fortress and you should be knocking down his toshuga in no time, followed by his tc or production facilities. Make sure you have enough meat shield to protect the cannons first (some people even start fortress with vet musk) then you can reinforce with mixed units like cuir, skirm, goon to handle some of Japan's other units .
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by ssaraf »

_LeGiT wrote:Lately I´ve been loosing to Japan almost all the time.
Even if the game is going well I still loose in the end and I can´t seem to figure out a way to win OMG


You are sooo meeeeeeeeee... :D . I remember having such a hard time vs this civ.

I usually do a 700w 4v 700c , stagecoach TP ,musk semi FF with 1-2 spies to kill the explorers. I have had good success with this. But only good on TP maps. Hmmm, let me detail it a bit :
Usually EP has a lot of TPs on maps like minimum 3 or so. The basic idea here is to get TPS , stagecoach them so that U are never having to collect wood. After the standard 14v up, all ur vills except 1-2 are on wood and u try to grab as many TPs possible. Fuck the market for the moment. U can collect 600w with ur wood vills in transition ie, get 3 tps , even 2 is fine. As soon as u hit age2, shift 9 or so vills to coin, rest on food. With the 400w, u drop a church to make 2 spies (yes thanks to @Aizamk , but he makes 1 and I am a greedy bitch I make 2 spies for 2 explorers to keep them pinned down whole game. P.S I HATE JAPS THAT MUCH). 200w goes into TP stagecoaching , 100w for a house [spies are 2 pop each]. Next 700w , with this u do all the remaining market techs upto steel traps , make 1 rax and houses for your musk semi. Shift vills for musks production now. Next vills. Try to kill shrines, dont fight unless u need to. (maybe for saving ur tps, the reason u need to save musks is that they ll be useful as meat shield for falcs production). Adjust ur tps for food/coin etc. Age up with 700c , u shud try have a decent infrastructure 2 rax , 1 stable by now , or get it, coz soon we are gonna push. 2 rax skirms 1 stable goon/currs (if u see yumi or u can guess if shrines are still on wood). Use ur 8 skirms , 2 falcs , 5 goons , 3 currs , 7 skirms. And push as soon as possible. Kill military buildings first, Then go direct for the TC. [I wont recommed other buildings like shrines / wonders / consulates becoz they just give japan time]. GOOD LUCK :D

So, In short, Age1 ----> Same stuff you do every game (market or tp)
Transition ---> Almost all on wood , grab as many tps as possible.
With 400w ----> drop church 2 spy , stagecoach , 1 house.
Card order 700w 4v 700c (musk semi , later skirm goon curr falcs, If u dont see stable, I like skirm currs better).

This same above build without the spy works good vs brits too :)

On non-tp maps, i usually rush starting with xbow-pike then transitioning to musk huss. The most important trick to winning in this case is : U never let ur pikes die, u keep seiging shrines and the japan guy usually does yumi on seeing the xbow-pike thing. Then u keep massing ur xbows , poke a bit , get a few vills and stuff. When u are continuously seiging his shrines , he is compelled to push out with his yumi mass (its like a bait tbh). By this time u do the hussar switch (700c for 5-10 huss) or 5 huss + 3 shipment and trap all his army. Its the modern xbow pike controlled style rush, coz the old all in xbow pike rush loses to CM TC.
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

5 Pike Semi-FF is pretty decent vs Japan. You really need to give those shrines a good ol' rub.

You really want to go Gend Skirm - early on without the fortress shipment for Ashi - they really are a potato vs Cavalry. Get up that fortress quickly and mass your delicious Skirm.

Do the usual wee thing. If you get 200w start always TP. If coin start get a market. If food start just age. Make sure to get a TP and a Market + Hunting Dogs and Placer mines + wood for Steel Traps by Colonial.
Make a Rax, a Houshe and Steel Traps from 400w and train a batch of Pikes. Focus on ageing ASAP.

When aged send 1k wood, make a stable and another TC. Train Skirm and Gend ASAP. Ship like 1k coin, gends and skirm and falcs and stuff. Push on 2 falcs. If you get attacked before then just win because thats what winners do. When you push be sure to win as well because you are no loser. Get an aresenal up and get CI. Remember its a 100% buff vs HI.

BO: 3v, 4v, 700c, 1000w, 1000c, 3 Gendarmesh, 8Skirm, 2 falc, 7 Skirm, 5 dragoons, other stuff.
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United States of America IntrepidExplorer
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by IntrepidExplorer »

JakeyBoyTH wrote:You really want to go Gend Skirm - early on without the fortress shipment for Ashi - they really are a potato vs Cavalry. Get up that fortress quickly and mass your delicious Skirm.


Why do I hear people saying so often that ashi are bad vs. cav? I mean admittedly they suck vs coyo. runner type units (20 damage in melee) but they still do 35 damage vs cav. I guess that's worse than a Musketeer for a supposedly better unit, but still...?
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European Union Asateo
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by Asateo »

JakeyBoyTH wrote: If you get attacked before then just win because thats what winners do. When you push be sure to win as well because you are no loser.


Darn straight. :biggrin:
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

IntrepidExplorer wrote:
JakeyBoyTH wrote:You really want to go Gend Skirm - early on without the fortress shipment for Ashi - they really are a potato vs Cavalry. Get up that fortress quickly and mass your delicious Skirm.


Why do I hear people saying so often that ashi are bad vs. cav? I mean admittedly they suck vs coyo. runner type units (20 damage in melee) but they still do 35 damage vs cav. I guess that's worse than a Musketeer for a supposedly better unit, but still...?


They have bad base damage. The multi they get (AFTER HC SHIP) makes them pretty decent though.
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Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

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Germany _LeGiT
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by _LeGiT »

Yo Hello Friends of the decent RTS-Genre Games!
Thank you for the answers.
So I‘ve tried this now, which has worked if i make no crucial mistakes.
So I go for collonnial fight as long as needed and take map control.
So i start 2 racks xbow pik. 10-20pik first, try make some damage in base, then retreat split and take shrines where I can. Harrass with xbow, add pik if needed and add huss later on as he‘ll probably yumi and cav aswell. Micro well and age if advantagous. Once kn 3 with good start you can finish with 2 falcs skirm goon!
So build would be sth like:3V 700w 4V 8xbox and then adapt with 700g for age or 3 huss or 600w w/e
What do you think boys?
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by tedere12 »

Better go for crates, if you ship vills u gonna fall behind in mass. Also 5-10 pikes and then full bow unless he going nagis start but then u can go hard on musks i guess
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Brazil macacoalbino
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by macacoalbino »

The meta play is to do pike semi use them to control the shrines whenever you have army to keep the japanese guy in a defensive position.

Harassing their explorers is really important in this MU. Usually go for native warrior treasures in age 1.

Having a tight build is also key, sometimes wasting something like 30 secs in a build is enough for them to overwhelm you with units.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: French vs. Japan

Post by Gendarme »

I think a hussar semi is good as well if you think you can pressure his monks with them early on forcing them to smokescreen back home, not letting them spread their shrines. Hussars can siege shrines as well after you have chased the monks back home, and they can actually take a fight against a small number of ashigarus contrary to pikemen.
Pay more attention to detail.

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